Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#191

Post by ralfd » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:41 AM UTC

favorited wrote: post #5

Here[0] is a post by someone else who (by his own account) "worked for RMS longer than any other programmer." While he obviously has had a long relationship with Stallman, one of his key takeaways was: "RMS’s loss of MIT privileges and leadership of the FSF are the appropriate responses to a pattern of decades of poor behavior. It does not matter if they are appropriate responses to a single email thread, because the…

And here [0] is someone else who (by his own accord) worked with both RMS and Bushnell and is saying Bushnell is bullshitting and grinding an axe:

[0] https://mobile.twitter.com/thomas_lord/status/11744336549420...

> Bushnell and I overlapped in our employment at FSF. ... The general culture of inclusiveness and tolerance that RMS fostered meant that, at least when I was there alongside Bushnell, that social circle in and around the organization was feminized and all the stronger for it. This does not mean, of course, that RMS (or any of us) never gave offense or acted stupidly. But Bushnell's portrait showing a depraved sexist coddled by this or that MIT prof. is simply bullshit, and Bushnell probably knows or should know that in his heart.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#192

Post by throwaway877cf9 » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:42 AM UTC

chasing wrote: post #39

> He takes everything literally and doesn’t necessarily take feelings and the reactions of others into account when making statements that are outside the bounds of his expertise in free software. Whelp, then no one should be that surprised when people stop taking his feelings into account and decide they no longer want to be associated with him. Not being an asshole is a two-way street.

> He takes everything literally and doesn’t necessarily take feelings and the reactions of others into account when making statements that are outside the bounds of his expertise in free software.

Funny that sounds like every SJW activist in tech these days. If you're a white cis male, if you're religious, if you're conservative then it's "FUCK YOU, YOU'RE A BIGOTED PIECE OF SHIT AND YOU SHOULD BE PUBLICLY SHAMED". Someone like Coraline Ada comes to mind who has used these tactics to force a "Code of Conduct" on open source projects and publicly shamed maintainers on Twitter who don't give in. But that's okay to you people because it's a liberal trans person so they can do no wrong. Fucking clowns.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#193

Post by simplehuman » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:42 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #89

flippinburgers wrote: post #67

If you read the article she notes that the infamous "hot ladies" photo was the result of someone else writing and then snapping that shot of his office door. People only see what they want to see. I see a bunch of people beating up on and attacking an awkward "nerd". It reminds me of high school.

Assuming that's correct, and that the "hot ladies" thing happened as she describes, how do you excuse away all the other inappropriate and harassing behavior he's displayed over the years?

Why isn't the harassing behavior being brought up through the right channels? Is internet rage the right way to do this?

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#194

Post by DoreenMichele » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:42 AM UTC

toofy wrote: post #109

qzx_pierri wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s autistic. Suddenly the people who were annoyingly vocal about being “inclusive” are forgetting Stallman’s disability. He says “creepy” things because he doesn’t understand social cues or casual communication at a certain level. Everyone in this thread demonizing RMS should be ashamed of themselves. This is the same reason why he can’t hold a relationship, or why he sleeps in his office. He’s just far out there -…

I don’t mean to sound snarky, but this really discounts so many factors in how autism is dealt with and even worse it makes it sound as if autistic people are unable to learn how their actions impact people around them, which is of course completely untrue. Autistic people may have difficulty interpreting things such as social cues, but they are absolutely not incapable. We have indications from many of those closest…

The ability to overcome the effect of a disability is partly how severe it is, partly how much and what kind of support one gets and partly time and effort. It's a constant effort and during times of stress it's hard or impossible to maintain.

An awful lot of so-called "normal" men manage to offend women right and left. There are raft loads of women very up in arms about "normal" male behavior.

The world generally has a very long way to go to resolve that question.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#195

Post by emiliobumachar » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:43 AM UTC

api wrote: post #138

baron_harkonnen wrote: post #72

We are, sadly, entering a new age of conformity. Aligning yourself with what main stream society thinks is correct is now more important than anything else. The response of course is that "bad behavior should never be excused, regardless of ability!" which leads to a losing argument in which we try to say what kind of good excuses what kind of bad. But this presupposes the conformist stance: that fitting in with the…

I question a fundamental assumption here: that Stallman was let go or pushed to resign because of "SJWs." I don't see much evidence of that. "SJWs" have had problems with him for years and nothing happened... until now. What's different this time? Stallman's comments on Epstein added to the embarrassment of MIT. He waded into a political bonfire and added fuel. The last thing MIT needs is someone affiliated with MIT…

Stallman did not defend Epstein in any way, shape, or form.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#196

Post by ahelwer » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:45 AM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #165

qzx_pierri wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s autistic. Suddenly the people who were annoyingly vocal about being “inclusive” are forgetting Stallman’s disability. He says “creepy” things because he doesn’t understand social cues or casual communication at a certain level. Everyone in this thread demonizing RMS should be ashamed of themselves. This is the same reason why he can’t hold a relationship, or why he sleeps in his office. He’s just far out there -…

You make it sound as though autistic people are unable to learn appropriate social behavior. That is not only false, it does an extreme disservice to the entire community of people on the spectrum.

Well it's a spectrum, right? Some can, some can't - or refuse, for reasons related to them being on the spectrum.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#197

Post by jamesrcole » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:46 AM UTC

aonsager wrote: post #101

baron_harkonnen wrote: post #72

We are, sadly, entering a new age of conformity. Aligning yourself with what main stream society thinks is correct is now more important than anything else. The response of course is that "bad behavior should never be excused, regardless of ability!" which leads to a losing argument in which we try to say what kind of good excuses what kind of bad. But this presupposes the conformist stance: that fitting in with the…

Yes there is a benefit to radical thinking and nonconformity, but "do it without hurting others" is a reasonable line to draw. Stallman was viewed as a toxic individual who caused harm, and this is what our society is trying to weed out. I still believe, perhaps naively, that it's possible to maintain not-normal opinions without causing pain to the people around you. And this is something that everyone needs to do, w…

Social progress involves making-acceptable things that were previously offensive and outrageous to the majority. Things that were considered harmful to society. Things like equal rights for women, minorities, different sexualities.

For progress to be possible, people must be able to say offensive things that others find unpleasant.

You might say, but it’s not those kinds of “harmful” views we want to stop, only the genuinely harmful ones. But who gets to decide which views are harmful?

On a different note, I think that, for creativity, it’s important to be able to think and express yourself without always needing to second guess yourself. And I think we’re creating a society where everyone has to always second guess everything they think and say in case they accidentally say something that may bring in the outrage mob, either now or at some point anywhere potentially years later.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#198

Post by throwaway877cf9 » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:48 AM UTC

flippinburgers wrote: post #67

If you read the article she notes that the infamous "hot ladies" photo was the result of someone else writing and then snapping that shot of his office door. People only see what they want to see. I see a bunch of people beating up on and attacking an awkward "nerd". It reminds me of high school.

If he was a trans woman it would be fine. Trans women engineers at the biggest tech companies post nudes and tweets about "girl dick" all day, and generally act like disgusting oversexualized perverts but THEY GET TO KEEP THEIR JOBS. WHY IS THERE THIS DOUBLE STANDARD? WHY DO TRANS "WOMEN" GET TO ACT LIKE FUCKING FREAKS PUBLICLY AND DON'T GET FUCKING CALLED OUT?!

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#199

Post by ng12 » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:49 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #84

qzx_pierri wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s autistic. Suddenly the people who were annoyingly vocal about being “inclusive” are forgetting Stallman’s disability. He says “creepy” things because he doesn’t understand social cues or casual communication at a certain level. Everyone in this thread demonizing RMS should be ashamed of themselves. This is the same reason why he can’t hold a relationship, or why he sleeps in his office. He’s just far out there -…

If you have a condition where you have trouble interacting socially with people, while also running an influential organization and acting as its figurehead, you need to be able to mitigate these issues. If this means you have an assistant who you run emails by before sending them, so be it. If your assistant also takes a look at your office (given to you as a favor by a respected educational institution) and tells y…

At what point is your work no longer your own? FSF wouldn't exist without Stallman's vision and subsequent decades of tireless effort. Who gets to decide that Stallman no longer deserves stewardship over his own life's work because of a poster and some tired anecdote about plants?

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#200

Post by solidasparagus » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:49 AM UTC

ralfd wrote: post #191

favorited wrote: post #5

Here[0] is a post by someone else who (by his own account) "worked for RMS longer than any other programmer." While he obviously has had a long relationship with Stallman, one of his key takeaways was: "RMS’s loss of MIT privileges and leadership of the FSF are the appropriate responses to a pattern of decades of poor behavior. It does not matter if they are appropriate responses to a single email thread, because the…

And here [0] is someone else who (by his own accord) worked with both RMS and Bushnell and is saying Bushnell is bullshitting and grinding an axe: [0] https://mobile.twitter.com/thomas_lord/status/11744336549420... > Bushnell and I overlapped in our employment at FSF. ... The general culture of inclusiveness and tolerance that RMS fostered meant that, at least when I was there alongside Bushnell, that social circle i…

> "The general culture of inclusiveness and tolerance"

That was not the Stallman I saw at CSAIL. There are many good things to be said about Stallman, but in multiple years there I never saw either tolerance or inclusivity.