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A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

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Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#251

Post by non-entity »

enraged_camel wrote: post #163
wokwokwok wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... Just answer the question. You’re not there to babysit the question asker or convince them to change their approach/hair style/choice of library. I know it’s frustrating to see people doing something wrong, or that you don’t agree with, but you know what you can do? Just... don’t get involved if you can’t answer the actual question that was asked, and if it’s a bad question, let it die a natural death.

You can actually do both. Indeed, the most popular and heavily upvoted answers on SO tend to do just that, in the form of "here's the answer to the question you asked, and btw, I think this other thing here might be a better way to go about solving your broader problem and maybe avoiding the issue in your question altogether!".

This is what I've tried to do in many cases, because, on one hand, if there are potential ramifications of X (security, etc.) it's good to educate, not just OP, but anyone else who may stumble on the same question. However, I've been on the other side too, and have written knowingly strage, contrived code for the purpose of teaching myself a concept, and it's frustrating when people just say "no".

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#252

Post by MauranKilom »

cy_hauser wrote: post #81
latk wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a perpetual tension between those who want SE to be helping everyone, and those who want to curate a helpful resource. People involved with community moderation aspects tend to fall into the latter group. For the last half decade or so SE has progressively abandoned this latter group, leading to a lot of pent-up frustration. Some changes SE has made are sensible (e.g. striving to be more welcoming and more i…

>> There is a perpetual tension between those who want SE to be helping everyone, and those who want to curate a helpful resource. I never understood this. Why have one or the other instead of both. All questions funnel in on a "everyone" area for a particular type of question. (Junior people can moderate those to gain experience if the senior mods don't want to. This will give them experience, insight, etc.) Even th…

FWIW, Jeff Atwood has voiced similar ideas (or support thereof), as have many others. It is my impression that people would be open to such drastic changes to the core QA aspect, but whether SO (the company) is willing to make them is a very different question. I see no indication that the answer is "yes".

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#253

Post by [deleted] »

Pfhreak wrote: post #136

Reading between the lines, it looks like a queer mod felt unsupported by SE over a long period of time, and SE eventually decided to make a code of conduct change. These mods disagreed with that change (some using language like "thought crime") which precipitated their resignations?

[deleted]

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#254

Post by MauranKilom »

Pfhreak wrote: post #136

Reading between the lines, it looks like a queer mod felt unsupported by SE over a long period of time, and SE eventually decided to make a code of conduct change. These mods disagreed with that change (some using language like "thought crime") which precipitated their resignations?

It's not as simple and linear as you make it out here, from what I can tell. The individual fact bits are right, but the story you paint is too simple.

One big point is that many mods resigned not over the future CoC change but over the plain unprofessional "termination" of the one mod in question (in multiple cases this being straw-camel-back regarding other recent missteps of the SO company). I recommend at least this interaction: https://judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/a/5197

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#255

Post by Gibbon1 »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #149
rusk wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the good old "X/Y Problem" [0] Doesn't matter if Y is non-negotiable, or if I've purposely constrained Y, to get a specific answer for a specific technology. How infuriating for a "Questions and Answers" site, to be told when you're asking a question, that the question you're asking is wrong, and that "you should instead have asked ..." I swear to god, the SO mods are the dumbest, most priggish, humourless be…

> to be told when you're asking a question, that the question you're asking is wrong I've long associated this behavior with Linux evangelists, and one wonders how much cross over there is with the people who answer questions on SO. It seems like both categories would be attractive to the kind of holier-than-thou mindset that would do this.

I've noticed that fields with high levels of knowledge or guild based status and gatekeeping display that sort of behavior.

Embedded engineers, game programmers, mechanical engineers you ask them a question they'll usually be happy to blather on. Ask a Cisco certified engineer a question and he'll make fun of you for daring to ask. Sometimes I think it's cultural too.

If you look at the people that founded SO and their careers it's obvious why the place is a toxic mess.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#256

Post by MauranKilom »

umvi wrote: post #119

So why hasn't an alternative to SO emerged where users can come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, ask and learn! Come, ask questions and get expert answers without money and without price

Isn't that how literally any forum operates? Maybe the SO format has some merit that made it come out so far ahead of any kind of forum?

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#257

Post by MauranKilom »

mellosouls wrote: post #12

There is no detail of the actual argument, just loads of people claiming to be in the know and indicating toxic behaviour and dramatic battles behind the scenes. There's a lot of flouncing resignations and "we need to talk" style essays also revealing little of substance. Considering the passion involved some people have clearly been hurt, but perhaps that's due to the amount of time they have invested in somebody el…

> perhaps that's due to the amount of time they have invested in somebody else's commercial enterprise ("our community") while believing it's something more.

> Perhaps what they are trying to say is the "something more" (presumably the voluntary contributions) is being undermined by paid staff. It's not clear.

You have it right, this matches sentiments I've read by long-term contributors. For many of them, contributing to "our community" and improving SO as a knowledge base are sufficient motivation to donate vast amounts of free time. If SO no longer cares to at least pretend they are more than a corporate entity that extracts money from voluntary unpaid labor, those contributions will likely dwindle.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#258

Post by MauranKilom »

sverige wrote: post #24
ianai wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that acceptable? People need to be paid for working.

Or, people need to stop volunteering their time for free to commercial enterprises and then thinking that time investment gives them rights regarding the management of the enterprise.

Of course it doesn't grant them explicit rights, but it for sure grants implicit leverage if said commercial enterprise depends on these voluntary contributions. "Alienate your contributors, lose the basis of your business" doesn't sound very sustainable.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#259

Post by Gibbon1 »

ratww wrote: post #178
ceejayoz wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if it’s a bad question, let it die a natural death This is... weird, IMO. I'd much prefer as a new user "I think I know what you're trying to do, your way is gonna cause you a bunch of pain, there's a better way, and here's why" to zero answers and a dead question.

I think it's better than having answers that doesn't match the questions. This makes for a terrible experience for future users. IMO it ok to suggest alternatives in the comments though. Alternatively, you can open a new question, answer it yourself and link to it on the old answer... I think it's allowed, but who knows.

Seems to make having a body of information that has real answers to edge cases and obscure problems is better than one that's just non answers and thinly veiled insults.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#260

Post by wool_gather »

vorpalhex wrote: post #134
falsedan wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have volunteer fire fighters, volunteer paramedics, volunteer librarians, volunteer social workers None of these positions are with a private business operating for profit.

SE does not profit from its community websites (eg the ones we all read) aside from a vague "getting traffic to its enterprise product" which is probably not worth what they spend on hosting.

They have always had ads, and they have started serving, um, new varieties of ads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21051472
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