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Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

independent.co.uk

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Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#71

Post by dredmorbius »

esyir wrote: post #39
dogma1138 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In shipping the cost is transferred easily down the line; capital investment in new vessels and new technologies is pretty slim because of that. Also the time spent in dry dock might as well cost you more than what you’ll gain through the service time of the vessel since many of these vessels change hands frequently sometimes even several times a year. Also because how risk is managed in the shipping industry none of…

Hm, really stupid naive question here. What happens if violating ships were basically seized

"Ship arrest" is a legal concept:

https://www.marineinsight.com/maritime-law/ship-arrest-under...

And no, I don't know much about it beyond the term and what's at the link above, but failure to abide by regulations is an allowable condition of arrest.

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#72

Post by dredmorbius »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #41
esyir wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, really stupid naive question here. What happens if violating ships were basically seized

Shipping to/from/through the waters of whosoever is doing the seizing is going to get a lot more expensive.

Or, you know, the shipping companies could address that risk by complying with the relevant regulations.

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#73

Post by gruez »

dogma1138 wrote: post #65
gbrown wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So give it a several year phase-in period, and provide mechanisms to remove/permanently disable the systems.

That’s what has been done in this case which lead to cheating devices to be installed in the first place. It’s very hard to near impossible to do or enforce all it takes is a country just by you that is willing to accept them. People aren’t going to take a huge price hike and countries that are dependent on imports won’t ever enforce such requirements which would leave these vessels out there. At the end of the day u…

>It’s very hard to near impossible to do or enforce all it takes is a country just by you that is willing to accept them.

You can set up treaties with your neighbors to enforce the same regulations. Also, if your country is sufficiently large enough, it's not really a concern because any savings from not having to follow the regulations will be wiped out by the increased cost in transporting the goods across the border.

You could also impose a tariff/charge on goods that transit through a neighboring country for no apparent reason (eg. China -> Mexico -> LA rather than China -> LA).

>People aren’t going to take a huge price hike

Source on the huge price hike? According to http://www.worldshipping.org/benefits-of-liner-shipping/glob..., the shipping industry contributes 183.3B to global GDP, and transports more than 4T worth of goods. Based on that, shipping accounts for approximately 4.5% of the cost of goods. Therefore, a 50% increase in cost because of emissions controls (very generous estimate) would only cause a 2.2% increase in the price of goods.

>and countries that are dependent on imports won’t ever enforce such requirements which would leave these vessels out there.

If it's announced years in advance, either shipping companies would adapt and get the vessels ready before the regulations take effect, or local manufacturers come online now that they're more competitive. No ships is ever going to be "stuck".

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#74

Post by JackRabbitSlim »

Blah that's hard and costs the rich some profits; lets talk about customers using plastic straws and eating beef instead! We have products we can sell them for that stuff!

A financial collapse is the only thing that will prevent an ecological collapse. World War 3 is the planets best hope.

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#75

Post by mikelyons »

JackRabbitSlim wrote: post #74

Blah that's hard and costs the rich some profits; lets talk about customers using plastic straws and eating beef instead! We have products we can sell them for that stuff! A financial collapse is the only thing that will prevent an ecological collapse. World War 3 is the planets best hope.

Be careful what you wish for, this solution also includes the second American Civil War and assassination of high ranking government officials.

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#77

Post by hdfbdtbcdg »

dogma1138 wrote: post #26
sdfmmkmsdfmk wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it reduces fuel consumption by 30%, wouldn't all ships want to have it? Is it too expensive, or what is the problem?

In shipping the cost is transferred easily down the line; capital investment in new vessels and new technologies is pretty slim because of that. Also the time spent in dry dock might as well cost you more than what you’ll gain through the service time of the vessel since many of these vessels change hands frequently sometimes even several times a year. Also because how risk is managed in the shipping industry none of…

How does this ownership structure still survive today?

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#78

Post by jws »

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #62
erdgdsgbdfsg wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High sulfur diesel is super nasty, and the shipping industry has to clean up, but it's not obvious how. I mean, let's say we forbid them from using high S diesel. What happens to this diesel then? Do we dump it in tailing ponds? pump it back into the ground? It's not obvious what to do with this. At least at sea S emissions are spread out minimizing impact (as opposed to localized) I'm not saying not to do anything.…

Elemental sulfur isn't all that nasty, it would be fine in a pile somewhere. The issue is dispersing it into ecosystems quickly. Kind of like fixed nitrogen, which like sulfur is a nutrient

You can see the great stacked blocks of it in Canada where it is removed from the tar sands oil… https://www.google.com/mymaps/viewer?mid=1Wi4KuLBYcXHH0dq4j4...

The oil is more valuable without the sulfur, but the market price of sulfur is low, so they just stack it up.

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#79

Post by dredmorbius »

throwaway391503 wrote: post #64

The solution is nuclear-powered ships.

There are between 60,000 and 80,000 commercial cargo vessels worldwide.

About 100-200 sink every decade.

Nuclear power as a routine matter in commercial shipping is unlikely to be widespread.

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#80

Post by defterGoose »

mikelyons wrote: post #75
JackRabbitSlim wrote: post #74

Blah that's hard and costs the rich some profits; lets talk about customers using plastic straws and eating beef instead! We have products we can sell them for that stuff! A financial collapse is the only thing that will prevent an ecological collapse. World War 3 is the planets best hope.

Be careful what you wish for, this solution also includes the second American Civil War and assassination of high ranking government officials.

Gee, even as an American I'm kind of hoping for that with reckless abandon!
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