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A.I. researchers are making more than $1M, even at a nonprofit

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Re: A.I. researchers are making more than $1M, even at a nonprofit

#161
post #91
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If one lacks that primary motivation, they certainly "lack" it and are "not filled" with the academic ethos. So "empty" is a fair term. No idea why you think this. A phd has a contrat with a salary, starting and end dates.

Re: "No idea why you think this." My comment above makes an argument. You don't have to agree with it, but it should give you some idea about how I came to my conclusion.

Indeed, I should have expanded a bit, it was a bit disingenuous from me. But I don't think that academia's ethos is the primary motivation. It wasn't for me. The primary motivation for my phd was to get the doctor title and money afterward. It was a transaction between academia and me where they get a qualified engineer for a low price, and I get educated about research. No one ever talked to me about academia ethos. The closest thing about educating and sharing others my supervisor told me was "We might have a job opening for teaching and research after your phd if you are interested to further expand in Academia, but don't count on it. Such openings are rare".

So basically your conclusion doesn't go well with my experience. I only saw a contract with low salary and a lot of work on my end. It was worth it for me (I think?), so I accepted.

Re: A.I. researchers are making more than $1M, even at a nonprofit

#162
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question is whether someone could fake it and not be caught/fired. (So yes, I meant: "Or work in some random domain?") From the second half of your comment it seems that the answer is yes? Maybe a comparison would help: someone pretending to be an experienced iOS/Android developer without any qualifications or ability would quickly be caught. Since they couldn't produce any working app or use a compiler, and anyon…

OK I misinterpreted slightly. Fake it til you make it isn't a terrible strategy. But pure fraud? If you didn't even make an attempt to learn on the job? You'd get caught pretty fast as soon as someone started asking any kind of in depth questions about the models you were supposed to be training. I'm not sure you could land a job knowing nothing. Maybe. Depends how hard you get interviewed and whether they know about…

Yes, now you're addressing my line of questions.

>But pure fraud? If you didn't even make an attempt to learn on the job? You'd get caught pretty fast as soon as someone started asking any kind of in depth questions about the models you were supposed to be training.

That's just what I mean. It would depend on someone asking you about it, right? (As opposed to being an iOS or Android developer or running microservices on the backend: in those domains nobody has to ask you anything, it's instantly obvious if you're not building and can't build anything.)

For machine learning, who is asking these questions?

If you throw data into a black box (3 lines of code) and are incompetent, can you please tell me a bit more about where you would get found out?

Let's use your example, ecology.

I show up, I get a dataset, and I put it into tensorflow using three lines of code I copy from stackoverflow.

I lie and bullshit about the details of what I'm doing, by referencing papers from arxiv.org that I don't read, understand, or actually apply. It's just the same 3 lines of code I copied on day 1. I don't do anything on the job.

How long could I last? An hour? A day? A week? A month?

Assuming I am outputting 0 useful work. I'm not doing any machine learning. Just 0 competence, or I make something up by hand or in excel.

I am trying to understand how people are judged.

Re: A.I. researchers are making more than $1M, even at a nonprofit

#163
post #132
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Penn Jilette is the biggest star in juggling that I know of. He seems to make pretty good money in so far as one can infer these things.

I would say that he's more like an entertainer that can juggle.

Well to be honest, your juggling has to be entertaining if you want to make money off it

Re: A.I. researchers are making more than $1M, even at a nonprofit

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty unlikely in the Bay Area. There are fairly large distortions in the local market (because of Prop 13, zoning, wealth inequality, and small home supply in general) that usually make renting significantly more affordable than buying in general. See eg. this $1.9M home (estimated payment $9000/month, not including PMI) vs. this $4900/month equivalent: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/910-San-Marcos-Cir-Mou…

Oh, for the bay area, absolutely. I will say though, might not make the most sense to pick a house in Mountain View as an example. For a couple just starting out in the South Bay that don't have two high earners and want to own a house, Fremont/Union City/Milpitas/San Jose are more realistic. Also because of prop 13, it can make sense to lose money on buying vs. renting in the short term if you anticipate staying som…

Yes but then you need to commute an hour instead of 15 mins. Meanwhile that $5k rental oftentimes is in a brand new luxury building with full amenities and is very nice, and also has the 15 min commute

Re: A.I. researchers are making more than $1M, even at a nonprofit

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow the Bay area is crazier and crazier, 2M for that dump... yeah 4 bedroom in Mountain View, but it's a 1964 and looks like it's going to fall down at the first gust of wind. Everything inside the house is to be remade too and in 2012 the property was worth 700K. That area is literally unliveable now.

It's a different lifestyle. You're just not in your house a whole lot in the Bay Area. My weekend involved a trip to a science museum & zoo; picnic lunch by the Bay; friend's kid's 2nd birthday party at a park; gymnastics class for my toddler; mom's group at the park; meeting up with mother-in-law; and a carnival. During the weekdays you're usually behind a computer screen most of the time, or you go for a hike, bike…

That does sound like a wonderful weekend. We are relatively new to the Bay and still trying to find out way and people. How did you get connected to everything / find things to do and people to hang out with? We have a few month old baby

Re: A.I. researchers are making more than $1M, even at a nonprofit

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a different lifestyle. You're just not in your house a whole lot in the Bay Area. My weekend involved a trip to a science museum & zoo; picnic lunch by the Bay; friend's kid's 2nd birthday party at a park; gymnastics class for my toddler; mom's group at the park; meeting up with mother-in-law; and a carnival. During the weekdays you're usually behind a computer screen most of the time, or you go for a hike, bike…

That does sound like a wonderful weekend. We are relatively new to the Bay and still trying to find out way and people. How did you get connected to everything / find things to do and people to hang out with? We have a few month old baby

I've been here a decade and my wife grew up here - I end up piggybacking on a lot of her friends and social activities, and I picked up a bunch more from coworkers and such. But for a whirlwind HN guide to the Bay Area:

Parks: check Google Maps for anything that's a splotch of green and just go to it. Local parks are free, county & state parks often charge a $5 admission (frequently not enforced). Most of them are pretty good. BAHiker.com has a good guide to state & county parks, Google Maps has pictures and reviews on local parks.

Events: Google [$city events] or check out EventBrite, Johnny Funcheap, or SFGate & the Mercury News's events sections. Also look for flyers when you visit your local downtown area, or check out the local library's website (they often sponsor a lot of fun stuff like storytime for kids or Star Wars Day). Many of the peninsula towns sponsor things like classes, swim lessons, outdoor movie nights.

Socializing: the Bay Area has a thriving Meetup scene, but tbh I've never made a friend that stuck through public Meetup groups. Had much better luck with staying friends with former coworkers, and with paid activities (gyms, courses, music lessons, kid stuff, etc.) Google is your friend here; Google [$activity near me] and you're almost certainly going to find something. Because the Bay Area is both wealthy and densely populated, it's a magnet for really good instructors: aside from the aforementioned Krav Maga gym (KravZone in Sunnyvale), there are 3 world-class gymnastics gyms (West Valley, San Mateo, Airborne); a mandolin orchestra (SF Mandolin); some hardcore cyclists (have seen them riding over the mountains in a group occasionally); and many other activities.

For mom's groups: there're some that are just organized over Facebook (oftentimes by invitation - if you get plugged into the parent networks you often find out all sorts groups), some that are public, and some that are organized through local non-profits (eg. Blossom Birth or El Camino Hospital). I'd probably start with a for-pay class to meet people (folks are often more committed in the for-pay classes, and it draws from a social class that is more tightly networked) and then ask them if they know of other resources.

Museums & amusement parks: the big science ones are the Exploratorium and Cal Academy in SF, the Tech in San Jose. Smaller science ones include Chabot Space & Science Center in Oakland, Monterey Bay Aquarium, SF Aquarium, and Seymour Marine Discovery Center in Santa Cruz. Kids ones are CuriOdyssey in San Mateo, Happy Hollow in San Jose, Junior Museum in Palo Alto, the Discovery Museum in San Jose, and Gilroy Gardens in Gilroy. Amusement parks: Great America in Santa Clara, Raging Waters in San Jose, Children's Fairyland in Oakland, Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk, and Six Flags in Vallejo. History & general interest: Egyptian Museum in San Jose, Hiller Aviation Museum in San Carlos, Computer History Museum in Mountain View, Maritime Museum in SF, the Hornet in Alameda, and probably a few others. There are also 3 railroads that my kid loves (Billy Jones @ Vasona Park, which also has a carousel; Roaring Camp @ Henry Cowell Park; and the seasonal Train of Lights between Fremont and Sunol), and most of the local parks have splash pads that he really enjoys.

Re: A.I. researchers are making more than $1M, even at a nonprofit

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does sound like a wonderful weekend. We are relatively new to the Bay and still trying to find out way and people. How did you get connected to everything / find things to do and people to hang out with? We have a few month old baby

I've been here a decade and my wife grew up here - I end up piggybacking on a lot of her friends and social activities, and I picked up a bunch more from coworkers and such. But for a whirlwind HN guide to the Bay Area: Parks: check Google Maps for anything that's a splotch of green and just go to it. Local parks are free, county & state parks often charge a $5 admission (frequently not enforced). Most of them are pr…

This was very detailed and thorough. Thank you for putting in the time!

Re: A.I. researchers are making more than $1M, even at a nonprofit

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does sound like a wonderful weekend. We are relatively new to the Bay and still trying to find out way and people. How did you get connected to everything / find things to do and people to hang out with? We have a few month old baby

I've been here a decade and my wife grew up here - I end up piggybacking on a lot of her friends and social activities, and I picked up a bunch more from coworkers and such. But for a whirlwind HN guide to the Bay Area: Parks: check Google Maps for anything that's a splotch of green and just go to it. Local parks are free, county & state parks often charge a $5 admission (frequently not enforced). Most of them are pr…

I think this could be generalized to any place with high density of people, it worked for me every time I moved country. Great guide.

Re: A.I. researchers are making more than $1M, even at a nonprofit

#170
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: "No idea why you think this." My comment above makes an argument. You don't have to agree with it, but it should give you some idea about how I came to my conclusion.

Indeed, I should have expanded a bit, it was a bit disingenuous from me. But I don't think that academia's ethos is the primary motivation. It wasn't for me. The primary motivation for my phd was to get the doctor title and money afterward. It was a transaction between academia and me where they get a qualified engineer for a low price, and I get educated about research. No one ever talked to me about academia ethos.…

Thanks for telling us your story -- you make good points.

To what degree did you enjoy the process of learning, collaborating, teaching, writing, experimenting, and so on? I'd wager you did enjoy some or many of these... otherwise, it might have been a long slog. :/

Maybe the following story can convey part of my message. You might have seen movies about a wily protagonist villain (or a flawed, tenuous partnership between several) who meticulously plan to steal some priceless artifact from some nearly-impregnable facility. What drives such people? I don't think it is purely money -- there would be alternatives that would, rationally speaking, generate more income, on a risk-adjusted basis. In the case of the ninja-suit wearing infiltrator(s), I'd argue they fundamentally enjoy the process (the preparation, the planning, the deferred gratification, the meaning). Perhaps the same is true for people that pursue and complete a Ph.D. -- some get a decent financial payout, but on average, I don't think the degree made them better off financially compared to other alternatives (e.g. holding together some rotting infrastructure with bailing wire). They value the title, the activities, the identity, the community, the kind of work they do.

Seeking a job only for money doesn't really endow much meaning -- (Please, don't take this as an endorsement to go off and work for some harebrained startup when you have better options. :P) -- though I think there is plenty of meaning even in the mundane (e.g. rearranging JSON) to be found if you open yourself to experience (e.g. books with dragons about parsers).

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