A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies • Hacker News Board

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#171

Post by ratsmack » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

carlesfe wrote: post #63

MrStonedOne wrote: post #29

This is natural selection at work. Stack Exchange has become a frustrating site to use. "Closed as duplicate: different and unrelated question" reopen further explaining the question and how its not related "Closed as duplicate: the first question that was immediately closed with no replies" OR! Google around, find SE link on issue, everybody is arguing about why the user wants to do it that why, convinces them to do…

Hah, exactly my experience: Open question about potential Android bug. I mention I have checked threads A, B, and C, and the symptoms of my bug are different, therefore why I opened a new question "Closed as duplicate: thread A" Sigh.

Google leads me to the site because I have the exact problem. I'm excited to see someone has already asked the same questions that I would on the problem. Then I see the dead end and wonder if anyone actually read and understood the question.

"Moderators" with a preconceived notion of what the question or subject is all about are not moderators.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#172

Post by mark-r » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #154

hombre_fatal wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We aren't here to just answer your homework question. Why you're doing something is part of the conversation and its context. It's also part of asking a good question. I don't understand the uproar especially on a Q&A site.

> Why you're doing something is part of the conversation and its context. ...and is often a way to shift the conversation to an argument about why the asker is doing it that way instead of giving them the information they actually asked for. I don't have time to argue about the sequence of events and layers of requirements that led to me asking the question, it doesn't matter if this "isn't the right way" to do it, i…

Often the best answer will depend on that seemingly off-topic information though.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#173

Post by sambe » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:56 PM UTC

MrStonedOne wrote: post #29

This is natural selection at work. Stack Exchange has become a frustrating site to use. "Closed as duplicate: different and unrelated question" reopen further explaining the question and how its not related "Closed as duplicate: the first question that was immediately closed with no replies" OR! Google around, find SE link on issue, everybody is arguing about why the user wants to do it that why, convinces them to do…

I would argue it was always like that. Some of it seemed to be actively encouraged by Jeff Atwood/moderators/senior users. You forgot another common one: "not clear what you are asking". I normally have to reply to this with "the question is in the final paragraph". Which often results negative comments and perhaps the question being closed. Or trying to edit a bug out of an answer, being refused because you didn't change enough, tidying up some wording, and getting the edit rejected for supposedly changing what the person is saying.

I don't think any of it is specific to SO - online communities seem to attract people who like everything to be extremely specific and rule-based, regardless of whether that creates the best outcomes. I've seen mods destroy several forums.

SO gets a lot of other stuff right though. I don't think it will die anytime soon, nor does it need to in order to improve things.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#174

Post by Dobbs » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:57 PM UTC

latk wrote: post #17

jmkni wrote: post #5

Spotted this on the hot question list, totally out of the loop on the latest SE drama, can somebody fill me in?

There is a perpetual tension between those who want SE to be helping everyone, and those who want to curate a helpful resource. People involved with community moderation aspects tend to fall into the latter group. For the last half decade or so SE has progressively abandoned this latter group, leading to a lot of pent-up frustration. Some changes SE has made are sensible (e.g. striving to be more welcoming and more i…

I really wish more details about this was available.

> it seems that SE is unwilling to protect trans moderators from vitriol by other mods.

Reading Monica's post made me pretty sure this was trans related. I'm sad that I was right.

> [From Monica's Post] unlike the rest of the CoC, this rule mandates specific, positive actions.

This is something I've heard many times from anti-trans activists in order to justify their purposeful, and intentional misgendering and dead-naming of trans individuals. I'm not saying that is what Monica is advocating, but my spidey-sense is definitely tingling.

> [From Monica's Post] chastising me for raising issues and saying my values were out of alignment.

Again this is something I hear from anti-trans activists. We saw similar rhetoric from homophobic individuals back in the 90s. That their religion and values dictated that gay people were bad therefore they couldn't .

---

Without knowing more it is hard to say, but even if this isn't about trans people Monica's arguments aren't inherently right. One person's religious beliefs don't justify the disregard for others. A very extreme example would be that many KKK member's religion states that black people are inherently inferior, and we don't give that belief consideration.

If you know more, please do share, because right now it seems like one sides arguments are valid, but they can quickly fall apart depending upon the specifics.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#175

Post by ratww » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:57 PM UTC

hombre_fatal wrote: post #117

wokwokwok wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Asking the poster about X, and offering a solution Y' which will solve X should at least be attempted. No! Goodness me, why is this so difficult? It should not be attempted. That’s an arbitrary expression of your opinion on the poster. If the question can’t be solved in the way it’s asked let it die gracefully with a “no you can’t do it that why” and suck up the down votes when someone comes along and proves yes yo…

Well, I disagree despite the condescension (which isn't as disarming as you think, btw). Qs on a Q&A site become a sort of permanent record that other people stumble across, not just a wham bam thankya ma'am transaction that only the Q-asker sees. By revealing XY problems, a better service is provided for everyone who stumbles upon the Q. > Goodness me, why is this so difficult? Because not everyone agrees with you.…

> Qs on a Q&A site become a sort of permanent record that other people stumble across

The fact that it is a permanent record that lives on is another argument in favor of the "just answer the damn question".

Context changes. Requirements change. Someone in the future might need the exact answer for some reason, but instead they get some useless back-and-forth and low-effort condescending answers that is super-specific to that asker.

Asking for more context, adding disclaimers before answering or linking to alternative solutions in the comments is fine, but it's a pain in the ass when the answers doesn't match the questions.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#176

Post by mark-r » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:57 PM UTC

rusk wrote: post #41

MrStonedOne wrote: post #29

This is natural selection at work. Stack Exchange has become a frustrating site to use. "Closed as duplicate: different and unrelated question" reopen further explaining the question and how its not related "Closed as duplicate: the first question that was immediately closed with no replies" OR! Google around, find SE link on issue, everybody is arguing about why the user wants to do it that why, convinces them to do…

Ah yes, the good old "X/Y Problem" [0] Doesn't matter if Y is non-negotiable, or if I've purposely constrained Y, to get a specific answer for a specific technology. How infuriating for a "Questions and Answers" site, to be told when you're asking a question, that the question you're asking is wrong, and that "you should instead have asked ..." I swear to god, the SO mods are the dumbest, most priggish, humourless be…

Part of the problem is that it's not just mods, it's anybody who's gained enough points to get some extra power on the site. Without a formal vetting process beyond "got enough points?" there's no way to control the quality of the actions.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#177

Post by calibas » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

Why did this story drop off the front page so quickly when it was one of the most popular?

Is the flag system being abused?

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#178

Post by ratww » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 3:03 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #122

wokwokwok wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... Just answer the question. You’re not there to babysit the question asker or convince them to change their approach/hair style/choice of library. I know it’s frustrating to see people doing something wrong, or that you don’t agree with, but you know what you can do? Just... don’t get involved if you can’t answer the actual question that was asked, and if it’s a bad question, let it die a natural death.

> if it’s a bad question, let it die a natural death This is... weird, IMO. I'd much prefer as a new user "I think I know what you're trying to do, your way is gonna cause you a bunch of pain, there's a better way, and here's why" to zero answers and a dead question.

I think it's better than having answers that doesn't match the questions. This makes for a terrible experience for future users.

IMO it ok to suggest alternatives in the comments though. Alternatively, you can open a new question, answer it yourself and link to it on the old answer... I think it's allowed, but who knows.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#179

Post by twic » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

dimillian wrote: post #152

So much politics about that. I go on on SO from Google, find solution to my problem. Sometime add my own answers. And sometime I post question when I can't find solution. End of the story. Why the fuck it need to be so complicated?

The problem is, of course, the humans.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#180

Post by sverige » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

ianai wrote: post #58

sverige wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, people need to stop volunteering their time for free to commercial enterprises and then thinking that time investment gives them rights regarding the management of the enterprise.

If you pay people for their labor then you can set terms in exchange for pay. It validates and reinforces the agreement. I’m being attached here for saying people should be paid for work.

My intent was not to attack you but rather the idea that contributing to internet forums somehow gives you any ownership rights to the forum.

For example, I don't know if HN makes money off this forum, but all of us commenters are contributing content that furthers the site's goals (hopefully). Yes, dang and sctb are paid to moderate this forum, but if there were no comments, there would be nothing to moderate.

Does that mean that by virtue of participating here for seven years I somehow have some right to tell them how to run their business? No, because there's no employment agreement. And even if there were any agreement, I doubt we would have the ability to do anything about some sudden change in direction from the C suite.

The realization that mere comments or the moderation of them on an internet forum create uncompensated content that someone else may profit from is apparently not as plain as I thought it was.