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In Defense of Richard Stallman

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Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman

#371

Post by ziofill »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #343
pron wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. None of the things you mention is actually the issue. Diversity: It's not about opinion, but about an authority figure doing things that harm his colleagues. I could have the opinion that you're an idiot and a liar, but if we were working together and I would constantly say that in the workplace where everyone hears, I would probably get fired. Inclusiveness: It's not about ostracising, either, certainly not beca…

> No. None of the things you mention is actually the issue. > Diversity: It's not about opinion, but about an authority figure doing things that harm his colleagues. I could have the opinion that you're an idiot and a liar, but if we were working together and I would constantly say that in the workplace where everyone hears, I would probably get fired. > Inclusiveness: It's not about ostracising, either, certainly no…

The ability to brush off the words of a respected superior (parent, manager, supervisor, etc...) is not equally distributed in the population. Female students have a disadvantage over male students, especially in fields that are male-dominated (such as CS or Physics), LGBT members are even more disadvantaged. The harm is in the compounding of a hostile environment, and when the hostility comes from a person of considerable power such as the famous Stallman, the hit is all the worse. Don't take my word for it, there is a lot of research on these social dynamics.

Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman

#372

Post by thefz »

virgilp wrote: post #200
throw0101a wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every episode I read about fell into the category of "socially awkward adult male". If we can't, as a group, tolerate awkwardness, we are very much down the rabbit hole of mandatory social conformity. Perhaps you need to read about more episodes: > I worked 10 years ago at VA Linux which had Richard Stallman on its board of directors. You might have heard that Stallman applied his open source ideas to his publicly…

Also, Gruber dislikes Stallman for quite a while, and has repeteadly picked on him for various reasons like "lack of hygiene" or weird behaviour. Never, once, until now, for the sexual advances theme.... He just discovered that this was in fact the primary reason why he should've disliked Stallman, not the others. Given this, I'd expect (A) this is close to the worst concrete evidence that one can find on Stallman's…

> Also, Gruber dislikes Stallman for quite a while, and has repeteadly picked on him for various reasons like "lack of hygiene"

It somewhat makes me think that, coming from the greatest Apple fanboy ever, Gruber forgot that on many accounts Steve Jobs too had a personal hygiene problem.

Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman

#373

Post by gnomewascool »

AFACT, the strongest argument in favour of the removal of RMS is by Thomas Bushnell[0]. The best counter-argument to that, which I could find, is by Thomas Lord[1][2]. I haven't found any replies to the latter.

(There's also the meta-issue that rule-by-lying-journalists-and-misinformed-mob is terrifying and despicable, but it doesn't affect the object-level question of whether RMS significantly contributed and/or contributes towards making MIT and the free-software world unwelcoming to women.)

[0] https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa...

[1] https://twitter.com/thomas_lord/status/1174433645110513664

[2] https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1174433645110513664.html

Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman

#374

Post by hizanberg »

CathedralBorrow wrote: post #339
hizanberg wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's well-known he's since recanted his thoughts in those posts: https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September... Are people allowed to change their mind after having conversations that convince them that their position is wrong?

Of course people are allowed to change their minds. But forgive me if I take a skeptical view of someone in their sixties suddenly saying "Contrary to my writings on the subject, I've recently learned that having sex with children is wrong" Especially if that recanting happens to take place right as the shitstorm about his writings and behavior has started.

Sure, but it's not like he was actively defending his position until the point of his public persecution. They've been the only 2 comments that I'm aware of his thoughts on the subject. Granted they were very controversial thoughts to be ever be trying to question in a public statement. Which makes me think he has no fear/reservations of openly saying what he believes at any time and is not socially-aware of the consequences of his statements, either because he's eccentric, socially awkward, or just lacking in empathy.

Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman

#375

Post by rimliu »

mcv wrote: post #363
coldtea wrote: post #76

Diversity -- but no diversity of opinion... Inclusiveness -- but let's ostracize the non-conforming aspie... Fairness -- but let's fire people or make them resign from unrelated positions for their personal opinions, because obviously all of a person's life should serve as a big PR, and god forbid they don't play the role 24/7. Someone might call them for it on Twitter, and what could their employee/organization do o…

It doesn't have anything to do with diversity of opinion or lack thereof. If this article is correct, the issue is simply a blatant misrepresentation of what Stallman said. I admit I haven't been following this news very well so far, so I'm doubtless missing some important facts. I'd heard Stallman was stepping down because of something he said about Minsky, but I have no idea what that was. If this is it, and this a…

And how do you feel about weirdos who treaten to kill themselves if a girl won't go out with them?

Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman

#376

Post by dewey »

> There would be no copyleft, no GNU General Public License, no Free Software Foundation, no GNU userspace (binutils, coreutils, etc), no GNU Compiler Collection, and (of course) no Emacs

Like no other decent person would've been able to invent these?

Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman

#377

Post by rimliu »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #343
pron wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. None of the things you mention is actually the issue. Diversity: It's not about opinion, but about an authority figure doing things that harm his colleagues. I could have the opinion that you're an idiot and a liar, but if we were working together and I would constantly say that in the workplace where everyone hears, I would probably get fired. Inclusiveness: It's not about ostracising, either, certainly not beca…

> No. None of the things you mention is actually the issue. > Diversity: It's not about opinion, but about an authority figure doing things that harm his colleagues. I could have the opinion that you're an idiot and a liar, but if we were working together and I would constantly say that in the workplace where everyone hears, I would probably get fired. > Inclusiveness: It's not about ostracising, either, certainly no…

You can start here: https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendi...

Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman

#378

Post by CathedralBorrow »

hizanberg wrote: post #374
CathedralBorrow wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course people are allowed to change their minds. But forgive me if I take a skeptical view of someone in their sixties suddenly saying "Contrary to my writings on the subject, I've recently learned that having sex with children is wrong" Especially if that recanting happens to take place right as the shitstorm about his writings and behavior has started.

Sure, but it's not like he was actively defending his position until the point of his public persecution. They've been the only 2 comments that I'm aware of his thoughts on the subject. Granted they were very controversial thoughts to be ever be trying to question in a public statement. Which makes me think he has no fear/reservations of openly saying what he believes at any time and is not socially-aware of the cons…

> Which makes me think he has no fear/reservations of openly saying what he believes at any time and is not socially-aware of the consequences of his statements, either because he's eccentric, socially awkward, or just lacking in empathy.

I pretty much fully agree with this. I don't think he's evil or anything. The consequences of his statements just finally caught up with him, and in a big way since he seems to have had a strong "It's just how RMS is, he's such a great leader, just ignore him or steer clear of him or whatever" shield around him for all those years.

Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman

#380

Post by roenxi »

claudeganon wrote: post #190
coldtea wrote: post #76

Diversity -- but no diversity of opinion... Inclusiveness -- but let's ostracize the non-conforming aspie... Fairness -- but let's fire people or make them resign from unrelated positions for their personal opinions, because obviously all of a person's life should serve as a big PR, and god forbid they don't play the role 24/7. Someone might call them for it on Twitter, and what could their employee/organization do o…

I’m not sure if this is just more grandstanding of the “SJWs run amok” variety, but in case you’re unaware, his recent comments were just the tip of the iceberg: https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendi... Someone else downthread also linked about how a woman he worked with on a Linux project had to be warned of his arrival ahead of time so she could leave because of his aggressive advances toward…

Something like 50% of that article isn't Stallman related, and some of the choice quotes are a bit unbelievable. Eg:

> I recall being told early in my freshman year “If RMS hits on you, just say ‘I’m a vi user’ even if it’s not true.”

That sounds like a joke. I mean, it is a joke. That isn't a serious comment/strategy on harassment. No creep has ever been forestalled by someone claiming to be a vi user.

1 stupid opinion and 3 negative comments, one of which looks like a joke, from 1980 to 2019 isn't evidence of a problem with Stallman.

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