Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads • Hacker News Board

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#381

Post by raxxorrax » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:35 AM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #330

stakhanov wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I object to the use of "dominated". In a herd, a "dominant" animal will actively work to keep others away from food sources and mating opportunities when those are scarce. This is not what this is. Strictly my opinion: There are few women in software engineering because few women WANT to be in software engineering, period. ...and it's not a given that this is by definition a bad thing for them either.

Maybe one of the reasons women do not want to work in IT is, that the atmosphere is still sometimes sexist? Or at least arkward. When I started to study IT, I was surprised to see, that the stereotypes were the majority. Meaning, long, oily hair, etc. So I guess that is still changing, and I really do not believe 50% women should be the goal, but maybe the IT world still needs reflection sometimes, why so little wome…

Women don't study IT because they dislike the grooming habits of their peers? And that is the fault of those icky nerds themselves? Because their hair is evidence of sexism?

This is hilarious. I don't know if it is more insulting to nerds or to women, but I somehow like it.

Seriously, I don't even know how to begin here...

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#382

Post by dTal » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:36 AM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #330

stakhanov wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I object to the use of "dominated". In a herd, a "dominant" animal will actively work to keep others away from food sources and mating opportunities when those are scarce. This is not what this is. Strictly my opinion: There are few women in software engineering because few women WANT to be in software engineering, period. ...and it's not a given that this is by definition a bad thing for them either.

Maybe one of the reasons women do not want to work in IT is, that the atmosphere is still sometimes sexist? Or at least arkward. When I started to study IT, I was surprised to see, that the stereotypes were the majority. Meaning, long, oily hair, etc. So I guess that is still changing, and I really do not believe 50% women should be the goal, but maybe the IT world still needs reflection sometimes, why so little wome…

Sexist -> awkward -> long hair is quite a series of leaps, and I'm mighty curious as to the underlying mental model. You appear to be implying that women might not want to go into IT because the men are unattractive. But unattractive is not the same as hostile. If you enjoy something, ugly people won't keep you away.

Of note is that the percentage of open source programmers who are women is half that of the broader industry, despite open source programming generally involving less face-to-face interaction. Surely, if women were scared away by ugly creepy nerds, the safety from behind a screen and absence of compelled personal interaction would tend to bring them out? It would seem to be suggestive that far fewer women enjoy doing that sort of thing for fun.

Incidentally, we have a nursing shortage. The incidence of male nurses is similarly low to female programmers. I find it amusing that no one hand wrings about this, or would dare make comments like "maybe men don't want to be nurses because nurses are ugly".

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#383

Post by Angostura » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:51 AM UTC

stakhanov wrote: post #290

There are job boards that SPECIFICALLY make it their business to target women and deliver female candidates looking for tech roles (in organizations that are in need of diversity hires): https://powertofly.com/ ...and companies pay a premium for those job advertising channels. Why is it a great business and an initiative to be applauded if it is about excluding men and a scandal if it is about excluding women?

> Why is it a great business and an initiative to be applauded if it is about excluding men and a scandal if it is about excluding women?

Because the one aims to reduce an imbalance in the workforce, which leads to a particular section being under represented.

Thwe other aims to increase an imbalance in the workforce, which leads to a particular section being under represented.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#384

Post by pmyteh » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:51 AM UTC

AdrianB1 wrote: post #289

WomanCanCode wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. As a female software developer, I would like to see those ads so I can get better jobs. If I don't even see the ads, then I would not even know about opportunity. Without opportunity, I cannot really progress. If only men see the ads, apply jobs and get interviews, then the employers may think that they shouldn't advertise to women. This is just circular thinking.

Not in the steel mill in my town: no woman ever applied in 50 years, why spend money on advertising to them? Nobody rejects female applicants (they don't reject practically anybody), but no woman wants to work there, they can barely find men. Same with any highway construction site: there is no woman in the entire country, the working conditions are too harsh. They accept anyone willing to work (there is much more de…

In addition to wanting to work in a steel mill, you'd have to want to be the only woman in a steel mill, which adds an additional layer of difficulties to what is already a difficult job. Likewise men in unpleasant female-coded jobs like cleaning.

I was a male typist for a while when I was at university. I found the weird experience of breaking gender roles quite entertaining, but it was definitely an addition to the usual do-work-and-get-paid deal. And secretarial work is not intrinsically unpleasant, so I was already doing better than most people in my position.

FWIW there are women on highway construction sites in the UK. Not many (construction as a whole is very male) but not none. I think the only industry which is entirely male here is mining, and that's because of a 19th Century law prohibiting women and children from doing it.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#385

Post by hdfbdtbcdg » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:53 AM UTC

Traster wrote: post #335

concordDance wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I upvoted your comment because I think the reasoning reflects people's actual reasoning. That said, I don't think techy women can be described as metaphorically "poor" these days. Big tech firms are desperate for more women. For women as a whole it's another issue, but very few are going to learn an entirely new skillset just because they saw an ad.

>Big tech firms are desperate for more women. I can't talk about everyone's experience, but this is true in a "We desperately want to have more women", but not true in the sense of "We're willing to address the systematic reasons women don't join our company". It doesn't matter how much you advertise on a website for women if you're advertising a job with no maternity benefits, or one of your engineers remarks "Oh! I…

How many companies in the US have paid paternity leave?

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#386

Post by hutzlibu » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:57 AM UTC

merb wrote: post #380

tapland wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But selection usually happens way before that. Probably at latest in middle school.

In germany it even happens before. parenting has a real impact on any child. it starts with the color of their cloths. some people really live the old way and belive and tell their boys that boys don't cry and they don't wear certain colors, etc. while girls need to behave girly wear nice looking cloths, etc. and then when it comes to homework they try to push their childs in certain directions. or tell/force their c…

"Some"?

I wish. I have a baby and the most important question is allways: a boy or a girl? (Not: healthy? Everything allright? Hard birth? (Yes, allmost, yes))

And clothes, very important the distinction between boy and girl. We got a lot of second hand clothing ... and people did not understand, that I really don't car about the color shades. They should be comfortable, good to the babyskin and fitting for the weather. And good looking, yeah, that comes afterwards. But underlining that it is a son? Why?

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#387

Post by rimliu » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:57 AM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #340

stakhanov wrote: post #290

There are job boards that SPECIFICALLY make it their business to target women and deliver female candidates looking for tech roles (in organizations that are in need of diversity hires): https://powertofly.com/ ...and companies pay a premium for those job advertising channels. Why is it a great business and an initiative to be applauded if it is about excluding men and a scandal if it is about excluding women?

Because it's a specialized channel where companies can specifically advertise their inclusiveness, which is important for a number of reasons. First, we need to stem the losses of women in tech that happen due to the traditionally woman-hostile culture that has pervaded the industry for so long, and is only now beginning to recede. Women (and in fact all minority groups) get pushed out of the industry by hostile work…

FYI: the more choices women have, the less like are they to choose IT. Nothing to do with "hostility". Sitting for hours in front of the screen starring at code may not seem so appealing to everyone.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#388

Post by hef19898 » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:59 AM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #226

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because white men that dominate those jobs already typically know white men to recommend for those jobs.

I must have spent the last 20 years in a parallel universe where every single hiring manager would like nothing more than to hire a minority or a woman because of corporate edicts. At Microsoft today, for instance, they have _quotas_ for hiring women (I don't know about minorities, but they probably have quotas for that, too), and if you don't meet the quota, you're kinda fucked as a manager. At Google, when the hiri…

Out of curiosity, how where the applicants selected for the interviews? Because first you limit the funnel for a certain group of people at the very start, then you have maybe an algorithm with a selection bias against the same group before we end up with an potentially also biased interview process before we reach an equally biased work life. I less we have reliable numbers for the funnel just looking at the interview stage misses the whole point.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#389

Post by hutzlibu » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 11:11 AM UTC

dTal wrote: post #382

hutzlibu wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe one of the reasons women do not want to work in IT is, that the atmosphere is still sometimes sexist? Or at least arkward. When I started to study IT, I was surprised to see, that the stereotypes were the majority. Meaning, long, oily hair, etc. So I guess that is still changing, and I really do not believe 50% women should be the goal, but maybe the IT world still needs reflection sometimes, why so little wome…

Sexist -> awkward -> long hair is quite a series of leaps, and I'm mighty curious as to the underlying mental model. You appear to be implying that women might not want to go into IT because the men are unattractive. But unattractive is not the same as hostile. If you enjoy something, ugly people won't keep you away. Of note is that the percentage of open source programmers who are women is half that of the broader i…

I have long hair myself. But I wash it.

At university .. I got the impression that quite some people forgot that. Regulary. Also to wash clothes. There is a difference between unattractive and disgusting. And I love open source and fresh air. But I did not enjoy some linux convention for example, because I seemed to be the only one, who minded the bad, worn out air in the rooms. So all of this I find offputting, I suppose is putting of women as well. What is the problem with more hygiene and fresh air and more sensitivity?

And the number of male nurses is increasing.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#390

Post by jcelerier » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 11:13 AM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #330

stakhanov wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I object to the use of "dominated". In a herd, a "dominant" animal will actively work to keep others away from food sources and mating opportunities when those are scarce. This is not what this is. Strictly my opinion: There are few women in software engineering because few women WANT to be in software engineering, period. ...and it's not a given that this is by definition a bad thing for them either.

Maybe one of the reasons women do not want to work in IT is, that the atmosphere is still sometimes sexist? Or at least arkward. When I started to study IT, I was surprised to see, that the stereotypes were the majority. Meaning, long, oily hair, etc. So I guess that is still changing, and I really do not believe 50% women should be the goal, but maybe the IT world still needs reflection sometimes, why so little wome…

> the stereotypes were the majority.

well, stereotypes don't appear out of thin air.

but think about it : when you started to study IT, you had to enroll a few months before, right ? the 1B$ question is why, with the information you had you chose to enroll, while many women with the same information do not. If we don't solve this, there's no chance to get anywhere near 50% parity in the workplace.