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Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

independent.co.uk

21–30 of 155 posts

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They definitely should dump it outside the environment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-front-fell-off/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirki_(tanker)

LOL does Snopes fact-check skits now?

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#23

Shipping is a pretty dirty industry, because of fuel quality they use and the general lack of oversight in the middle of the ocean. I was on the board of Corvus Energy ( http://corvusenergy.com ) while working in Norway, whose technology reduces CO2, SOx, NOx, and fuel consumption by up to 30%. One installation was the equivalent of taking 10,000 cars off of the road. Thankfully, there are developments in this space.…

Don't forget the noise pollution: https://www.marineinsight.com/environment/effects-of-noise-p... https://ocr.org/sounds/shipping-noise/

Our house fills with low frequency vibrations and a dull humming when they pass by, and even at my office a further half mile inland I can gear and feel it over the loud office environment.

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#24

I guess the new law reads "Can't release sulphur into atmosphere", so the shipping companies were thinking of ways around that. Why not say "Can't release … into environment", which would cover air, sea, ground, space and everything else around us?

there should be a some kind of spirit of the law wording in addition i think.

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#26

Shipping is a pretty dirty industry, because of fuel quality they use and the general lack of oversight in the middle of the ocean. I was on the board of Corvus Energy ( http://corvusenergy.com ) while working in Norway, whose technology reduces CO2, SOx, NOx, and fuel consumption by up to 30%. One installation was the equivalent of taking 10,000 cars off of the road. Thankfully, there are developments in this space.…

If it reduces fuel consumption by 30%, wouldn't all ships want to have it? Is it too expensive, or what is the problem?

In shipping the cost is transferred easily down the line; capital investment in new vessels and new technologies is pretty slim because of that.

Also the time spent in dry dock might as well cost you more than what you’ll gain through the service time of the vessel since many of these vessels change hands frequently sometimes even several times a year.

Also because how risk is managed in the shipping industry none of these companies is exposed to any actual action, the vessels would almost never be owned by an entity with actual assets and they would essentially be registered to shells holding only debt.

This is done to protect shipping companies from damages in case of accidents but it’s also very convenient to avoid any regulation since if they are caught there will be no legal entity to pay the fine.

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#27
post #19
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But maybe you don't need crews, and ships that big. Perhaps it would be viable to operate a semi-autonomous fleet of dozens or hundreds of medium-sized wind-powered ships; it's possible that wind turbines + battery + electric engine would be better than sail. A trimaran could accommodate wind turbines and a certain number of standard containers that would also act as ballast. COLREGs probably prevent unmanned ships,…

The biggest question in regards to windpowered vessels is always "how do you deliver on time?". With logistics turning more to just in time deliveries to reduce warehousing a ship turning up a day late is not acceptable, which creates knock off issues with slot times in harbours not aligning and you either pay higher prices for later scheduling or having to pay for an unused slot. This is not even taking into conside…

Is there any resources regarding wind turbines as electricity generators for propulsion?

I imagine this could work pretty well, maybe even with headwind (?), owning to the different densities (and inertia) of water and air, as well as their relative velocities. Yet everyone I've told this to called me nuts, likening this to perpetual motion, etc.

I'd likely go with hydrogen storage for boats, especially if the system is reversible (though I've read it can be quite difficult to filter input water).

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#28
If you want to read the other side's argument, here it is, from International Bunker Industry Association: https://ibia.net/facts-and-fears-in-the-open-loop-scrubber-d...

The main point is that there is regulation for washwater based on science. The article describes "warm, acidic, contaminated washwater containing carcinogens including polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) and heavy metals", but regulation in fact specifically includes standard for heavy metals, PAHs, and acidity. You should argue why acidity standard is wrong and what it should be, instead of repeating "acidic washwater".

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#29
post #27
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest question in regards to windpowered vessels is always "how do you deliver on time?". With logistics turning more to just in time deliveries to reduce warehousing a ship turning up a day late is not acceptable, which creates knock off issues with slot times in harbours not aligning and you either pay higher prices for later scheduling or having to pay for an unused slot. This is not even taking into conside…

Is there any resources regarding wind turbines as electricity generators for propulsion? I imagine this could work pretty well, maybe even with headwind (?), owning to the different densities (and inertia) of water and air, as well as their relative velocities. Yet everyone I've told this to called me nuts, likening this to perpetual motion, etc. I'd likely go with hydrogen storage for boats, especially if the system…

I think the problem is the efficiency, a wind turbine is limited to about 60% by Betz law[0] and most today seem to have 35-45% efficiency. Which means with all losses included I think it's hard to see a headwind helping, same with how the apparent wind shifts forward, which would make a weak stern wind not help anything and the turbine just be drag.

They are making trials with wind "turbines" using the magnus effect[1], they seem to save about 300 tons of fuel per year, but since the article doesn't include the ships yearly total amount it is hard to put it into a relation to anything. https://safety4sea.com/tests-from-rotor-sail-technology-on-v...

I think ships is one of the applications where hydrogren could be feasable. Batteries are hard when you have to have the range from China to Europe or NA without stops and the density of hydrogen could maybe solve that. Especially since compared to cars the distribution network is more easily centered around large harbours and routes which is already used to handling dangerous goods. Though the competition is going to be synthetic hydrocarbons and all they need are producers, the entire world is already devoted to transporting them.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect

Re: Ships fitted with ‘cheat devices’ to divert poisonous pollution into sea

#30
post #27
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest question in regards to windpowered vessels is always "how do you deliver on time?". With logistics turning more to just in time deliveries to reduce warehousing a ship turning up a day late is not acceptable, which creates knock off issues with slot times in harbours not aligning and you either pay higher prices for later scheduling or having to pay for an unused slot. This is not even taking into conside…

Is there any resources regarding wind turbines as electricity generators for propulsion? I imagine this could work pretty well, maybe even with headwind (?), owning to the different densities (and inertia) of water and air, as well as their relative velocities. Yet everyone I've told this to called me nuts, likening this to perpetual motion, etc. I'd likely go with hydrogen storage for boats, especially if the system…

The idea is not perpetual motion as long as you're not trying to extract energy for propulsion directly from a head wind. You could, however, certainly use a wind turbine to store energy while not underway (e.g. while in port trabsferring cargo or at anchor) and then use that energy to propel against a headwind later. (I'm a marine engineer and work on ship propulsion system design, specifically WRT energy efficiency of propulsion systems.)

The challenge with a hybrid wind turbine-electric propulsion would be the energy efficiency losses from turbine generator through a power conversion (and probably storage) device and ultimately the propulsion motor. By the time you're finished, it probably would have been more practical to use some type of sail to harvest wind energy for propulsion directly with no losses. For a head wind, your wind turbine would be harvesting energy, but it would also be creating significant air drag which would be added to the total resistance of the vessel, so the sum total of propulsive power would be negative in a direct head wind scenario. Interstingly, the opposite is true for a tail wind - that is you'll be gaining thrust (like a sail) in addition to harvesting some of that energy. Again, though, because of the energy conversion losses, I think you'd probably get better propulsive efficiency if you just used a sail, which has no energy transmission losses.

I think the best case for wind turbines on ships is to use them for energy harvesting in port and in tail winds. I'm sure someone is doing this, but you need to balance the initial hardware investment and operational maintenance costs against the potential fuel savings in order to justify the installation.

There are a large quantity of energy harvesting/conserving technologies out there that are trying to take profit the IMO restrictions (which is a very good thing I think). The interesting thing is that global shipping is only a few percent (used to be 2%) of the worlds transportation carbon emissions, but it transports the most tonnage of any mode of transport. My point is that, while all of this focus on the shipping industry is necessary and very interesting to me personally, things like converting automobiles or airliner emission is much more of an environmental impact.

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