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Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

abc.net.au

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Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#91

Post by elif »

harimau777 wrote: post #40
elif wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>life or death decisions that have to be taken without sufficient information. Sounds like you're describing warfare before Geneva conventions or the somehow permitted US war crimes to me.

I'm not sure that I understand your argument. War consisted of making life or death decisions based on insufficient information both before and after the Geneva conventions.

Of course on the battlefield incorrect decisions must be made. However, drone strikes like the Afghan farmers do not fit that criteria. The decision did not /have/ to be made. It was a voluntary assassination.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#92

Post by kbenson »

matz1 wrote: post #90
kbenson wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'll have to prove to me that people like that exist, at least in a state that is acceptable enough that they can be employed by the military and not excluded because of those same problems. I suspect people like that cause far more problems than they solve. How many war atrocities do you need to make the entire idea cost more than its worth? And before someone jumps in that these are already atrocities, th…

while I'm fairly certain I am that people, I'm not sure how to prove it to you. The war atrocities is either the issue of the leader making wrong decision or the soldier not following order. Assuming the leader made the correct decision of killing and the solider who execute that order is a solider who doesn't have moral qualm about the killing then what is the issue ?

Well, unless you've killed 10+ innocent people, I don't think there's a way to prove it, nor do I think you should be so sure of yourself.

Beyond people having problems killing others, the nature of the job in question is that you will have visuals on people you are responsible for terminating, and there will be mistakes made, often on Intel you've provided ("it looked like a terrorist meeting to me, how was I to tell it was guys shooting the shit around a campfire?")

I used to think of myself how I think you think of yourself, where I thought I could view killing and death rationally. Since then I've had a few points where I had to deal with the death of people I knew and while I was somewhat clinically detached most the time, there were instances, sometimes months later, where I was overcome with emotion for the first time regarding that incident. There's a fine line between being able to rationalize your decisions and being in denial, and the human mind doesn't always act as you want or expect. And besides making people accidental murderers, how do you test for this? Seems like many people in the army would probably identify just as you are, yet we still have this problem.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#93

Post by glogla »

dang wrote: post #85
glogla wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have the drone pilots not thrown their humanity away willingly? I think there's s difference between doubting humanity of someone because of skin color or sexual orientation or natinality or whatever, and someone who voluntarily became a murderer as a day job. The pilots can stop killing people any day. They continually chose not to.

You can't throw your humanity away.

I guess that's debatable.

I would say that even humans who decided to become monsters (say, Unit 731, Mengele, Breivik, various serial killers, etc) deserve human rights and humane treatment in eyes of the law, because taking those away is a bad precedent for society.

The state should consider them people because the state has to consider everyone people, and making exceptions is very dangerous.

That doesn't mean we as individuals have to morally consider them as anything other than the monsters they are.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#94

Post by anigbrowl »

glloydell wrote: post #77
brokenmachine wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please imagine an Afghani drone killing 30 civilians in Washington. Then think again about who is dehumanizing who.

I think the process of dehumanization occurs on all sides of the equation, and it's something to be questioned and examined whenever it happens. Engaging in the same process and behavior damages the intellectual credibility of an argument because it allows you to ignore potentially relevant information. It also significant diminishes any moral authority you may be laying claim to.

I am perfectly comfortable judging people on the basis of the actions they willingly carry out. People who are at absolutely zero physical risk from the people they are directly and personally responsible for killing are morally culpable in my view, and I am not obliged to care about them.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#95

Post by anigbrowl »

tomohawk wrote: post #26
anigbrowl wrote: post #2

The other day a drone in Afghanistan killed 30 civilians. Rather than being ISIS members holding a meeting, they were pine nut farmers gathering around a fire to relax after their day's work. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-attack-drones... I don't really give a fuck about the psychological condition of the drone pilots except insofar as it puts their children at risk. They and their commanders should…

Or did they... https://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2019/09/afghan-offic...

Don't act like we don't kill huge numbers of civilians. We've killed more civilians in Afghanistan in the last 3 years than there are ISIS fighters in the country.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#96

Post by anigbrowl »

golergka wrote: post #7
anigbrowl wrote: post #2

The other day a drone in Afghanistan killed 30 civilians. Rather than being ISIS members holding a meeting, they were pine nut farmers gathering around a fire to relax after their day's work. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-attack-drones... I don't really give a fuck about the psychological condition of the drone pilots except insofar as it puts their children at risk. They and their commanders should…

Then you really lack perspective on what any warfare is: it's always critical, life or death decisions that have to be taken without sufficient information. US civilian to combatant casualty ratio in the recent conflicts have been significantly better than any other modern wars as well. So, what do you suggest instead?

I've been in multiple life and death situations thanks, and I am acutely aware of the complex calculus of war. I don't think drone warfare should be used against civilian targets, military ones are OK.

If you want to assassinate people outside of regular military conflict, do it in person.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#97

Post by matz1 »

kbenson wrote: post #92
matz1 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while I'm fairly certain I am that people, I'm not sure how to prove it to you. The war atrocities is either the issue of the leader making wrong decision or the soldier not following order. Assuming the leader made the correct decision of killing and the solider who execute that order is a solider who doesn't have moral qualm about the killing then what is the issue ?

Well, unless you've killed 10+ innocent people, I don't think there's a way to prove it, nor do I think you should be so sure of yourself. Beyond people having problems killing others, the nature of the job in question is that you will have visuals on people you are responsible for terminating, and there will be mistakes made, often on Intel you've provided ("it looked like a terrorist meeting to me, how was I to tel…

Yes, mistake do happen but you can acknowledge it, made improvement plan and move on.

I think the issue is you are viewing the killing solely from your own perspective and your own morality. While I understand it can be emotionally traumatic for you, for others it won't.

Just like killing animal, for some people it can be devastating and highly traumatic but for some other people it was nothing.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#98

Post by golergka »

anigbrowl wrote: post #96
golergka wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you really lack perspective on what any warfare is: it's always critical, life or death decisions that have to be taken without sufficient information. US civilian to combatant casualty ratio in the recent conflicts have been significantly better than any other modern wars as well. So, what do you suggest instead?

I've been in multiple life and death situations thanks, and I am acutely aware of the complex calculus of war. I don't think drone warfare should be used against civilian targets, military ones are OK. If you want to assassinate people outside of regular military conflict, do it in person.

The entire point is being unsure if the target is civilian or a military one.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#99

Post by glloydell »

anigbrowl wrote: post #94
glloydell wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the process of dehumanization occurs on all sides of the equation, and it's something to be questioned and examined whenever it happens. Engaging in the same process and behavior damages the intellectual credibility of an argument because it allows you to ignore potentially relevant information. It also significant diminishes any moral authority you may be laying claim to.

I am perfectly comfortable judging people on the basis of the actions they willingly carry out. People who are at absolutely zero physical risk from the people they are directly and personally responsible for killing are morally culpable in my view, and I am not obliged to care about them.

I'm inferring from your statement that you believe that the only justified use of deadly force is a situation where someone is themselves at risk of physical harm, is that accurate?

As far as caring for them, I don't think anyone is obliged to care for anyone or anything (free will and all that). I do think that the more people that you choose to place into your own personal out-group of "gofuckthemselves", the more of your own humanity you lose touch with.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#100

Post by glloydell »

matz1 wrote: post #89
glloydell wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter how much care was taken in making the initial judgement if the information using it to reach it is flawed, or if the situation changes in the time between the decision being made and it's execution. I'd imagine that someone with no qualms about taking human life would be far less likely to confirm the validity and accuracy of those justifications. I don't think anyone wants drone operators who dismi…

>It doesn't matter how much care was taken in making the initial judgement if the information using it to reach it is flawed, or if the situation changes in the time between the decision being made and it's execution. Of course, thats the leader job to make sure that the information is not flawed and take into account the time decision being made and it's execution. >I'd imagine that someone with no qualms about taki…

TL;DR; DoD Manual says subordinates have an obligation to question morality of orders. Lack of empathy is a severe handicap and liability for a soldier.

The DOD is pretty clear on this point ( https://tinyurl.com/yxqfwyrx [link to PDF of the DoD Law of War Manual] )

""" 5.10.2.4 Duty Not to Comply With Clearly Illegal Orders and the Principle of Proportionality. In the context of the principle of distinction, it would often be clear whether a given situation implicates the duty not to comply with clearly illegal orders to commit law of war violations – such as the duty of a subordinate to refrain from complying with an order to attack the civilian population. However, the nuances involved in applying the principle of proportionality could make it more difficult to know whether an order given is clearly illegal. The duty not to comply with orders that are clearly illegal also applies to violations of the principle of proportionality, in particular, the case of a commander who orders subordinates to conduct an attack that is expected to result in civilian casualties that the commander himself or herself acknowledges would be excessive """

You're absolutely right that the ability to make those assessments in the field isn't always going to be there, but that doesn't mean that there is no requirement or need for subordinates to be able to assess orders and actions.

I'm assuming the type of person who has no issue at all with taking life lacks (or has seriously damaged) capacity for empathy. Beyond the basic issues of morality and human decency, someone without the capacity for empathy is severely disadvantaged when it comes to assessment and awareness.

Being able to conceptualize and examine the intellectual and emotional state of another human provides a huge predictive advantage. Assessing someones potential to be a threat is far easier when you can understand what could potentially cause them to justify violence towards you.

To sum up, If you have no qualms with taking life, and you lack the capacity for empathy, you are not properly equipped to serve in the military.

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