Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads • Hacker News Board

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#171

Post by kjs3 » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:42 AM UTC

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #144

undefined3840 wrote: post #80

The dirty secret of hiring is that employers are always thinking about cost, but how many employees out there think of themselves as a cost to a bottom line? Not many. The most exploitable tech workers are young, single, males on H1-b visas. They will take a low salary and essentially be enslaved to their job because getting fired means getting kicked out of the country. Old workers and women are more “expensive” bec…

Older workers will still demand to be paid more than younger workers, since they have more experience.

Well....they don't, per se, demand it. They are worth it because they have more experience. The issue is that even the ones who will accept less than their worth aren't considered because of various biases that have nothing to do with their ability to do the job.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#172

Post by seanmcdirmid » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:42 AM UTC

formercoder wrote: post #168

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are ways to find you based on that and it won't matter what your gender or age is. For the higher paying specialized jobs, it’s called a network. But networking is even more biased than formal recruiting approaches.

Is it biased in a bad way? It’s really hard to measure someone’s ability to do a job, especially for a more senior role. Therefore, I feel comfortable hiring people recommended to me by others that I trust.

Because white men that dominate those jobs already typically know white men to recommend for those jobs.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#173

Post by kjs3 » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:43 AM UTC

dlphn___xyz wrote: post #129

this doesnt seem like a bad thing imo - tech has always favors young applicants

You're going to age too. Don't wait until employers say "screw you" before you care.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#174

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:47 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #167

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That kind of thing is why the doctrine of disparate impact was developed. There are a lot of messy edge cases (everything has some correlation with one or another protected class), but if I end up never advertising to men the fact that I'm using a neural network won't protect me.

So then are algorithmic approaches to advertising for employment off limits? Facebook and google then really shouldn’t go near this kind of work since their tech is legally inappropriate.

I don't know how it works with Google, but the article says Facebook is building a new ad console specifically for the kinds of advertising where discrimination is illegal. Presumably they'll make sure ads run through it aren't producing any disparate impact. (But note that this wasn't the problem with the cases in the article; in those cases, advertisers were explicitly pressing a "don't send this to women" button.)

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#175

Post by DoreenMichele » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:47 AM UTC

hysan wrote: post #162

nefitty wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great idea. What about a service that allows proctored skills tests for applicants? Like Sitepoint but with some additional verification layers. Hiring managers would then pick a tech stack or set of skills they need, and matches would bubble up based on applicants in the area with the relevant skills. The "culture fit" question could be another egg to crack. Who knows if interviews are the best way to figu…

Any process that attempts to “solve” the technical skills verification problem will not work unless it replaces the technical portion of the on-site interview. Otherwise, companies can still reject based on technical assessments in which case you’ve solved nothing. You’ve simply changed the shape of the hiring funnel. Also, looking beyond the immediate need, companies would also need to understand that this only appl…

You’ve simply changed the shape of the hiring funnel.

Sometimes, that's enough to make a real difference.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#176

Post by WomanCanCode » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:47 AM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #106

The simple question is: Does everyone have an equal opportunity to this position or not? If you can't even see the ads then the answer is no, and so it's a violation. If there were different ads for different groups but everyone still had the opportunity to see, apply and acquire the position then it's fair game. Perhaps Facebook could improve job ads to allow for more specific targeting but always have a fallback ad…

I agree. As a female software developer, I would like to see those ads so I can get better jobs. If I don't even see the ads, then I would not even know about opportunity. Without opportunity, I cannot really progress.

If only men see the ads, apply jobs and get interviews, then the employers may think that they shouldn't advertise to women. This is just circular thinking.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#177

Post by yawaramin » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:48 AM UTC

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #133

yawaramin wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I meant what are the sociological / philosophical reasons. Are you asking why it's bad to discriminate against women, foreigners, and older people in hiring?

No, and it’s fairly ludicrous to even suppose it. I’m asking why we choose to emphasize this along some axes of characteristics and not along others. E.g. introvert / extravert axis is something employers are free to discriminate / harass along (e.g. open plan office layouts, less “outgoing” people often paid much less for the same job) even though it likely causes as much damage as any other axis that roughly splits…

> E.g. introvert / extravert axis is something employers are free to discriminate / harass along

First of all–'introversion' is, scientifically speaking, not as clear-cut as what most people think it is ( https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/will-th... ). Medically speaking, it's not considered to be a disability. For conditions that are medically considered as disabilities, the relevant US law already covers accommodations: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/disability.cfm

> it likely causes as much damage as any other axis that roughly splits the population.

I wonder how you are measuring 'damage'? Are you saying that introverts suffer as much damage from loud workplaces as racial minorities do from being denied employment? I'm really struggling to understand the logic here.

> I think it’s interesting to ask why some kinds of characteristcs (gender, sexual orientation) are allowed to have this elevated status,

You are free to read up on the history of why the protected classes exist in employment law if interested. The relevant laws and judgments behind them are all public knowledge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group#United_States

> Because of the existence of unprotected characteristic axes ... the explanation of protected classes, by definition, cannot be mitigation of harm

Or ... here's another explanation–you may not have fully understood the history of the relevant laws, why the existing protected classes reached that status, and mistakenly believe that other classes were not considered. Fortunately, you have plenty of opportunity to educate yourself if interested.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#178

Post by dlp211 » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:50 AM UTC

WomanCanCode wrote: post #137

When I was younger (unmarried and no kids), I could work 11 hours in the office as a software developer. And that translate to 55 hours a week minimum. But now I just work 9.5 hours a day. I would love to work 8 hours, but based on my experience you really need to work as much as you can get so you can have a “good” daily stand-up report. I wish I could have a better work and life balance … but when you are a softwar…

Stop giving your employer free labor.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#179

Post by kevcampb » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:51 AM UTC

formercoder wrote: post #168

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are ways to find you based on that and it won't matter what your gender or age is. For the higher paying specialized jobs, it’s called a network. But networking is even more biased than formal recruiting approaches.

Is it biased in a bad way? It’s really hard to measure someone’s ability to do a job, especially for a more senior role. Therefore, I feel comfortable hiring people recommended to me by others that I trust.

'jobs for the boys' is a well known phrase for a reason. It's rarely used in a positive way

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#180

Post by slics » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 2:52 AM UTC

From the comments below on testing one’s experience, I don’t think that there is a way to actually test one’s soft skill experience, and if they are the right candidate for the job, other than leveraging the networking aspect for recommending a candidate for a job.

One important requirement for a senior executive job these days is their Soft Skills. If you can find a way to measure that, well you have solved a major issue.