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Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

gridsagegames.com

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Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#61

Post by CrendKing »

floatingatoll wrote: post #60

This article fails to address two key points that could significantly weaken its core arguments if answered. Those points and the questions that arise from each are: 1) Apple charges a flat rate of $100/year for notarization access. Steam and Mac App Store take 15-30%. What additional percentage of Mac sales (either subscription and/or one-time) is being spent on this annually by this developer? $100/year & 100 units…

The argument from the article is that in non-Apple ecosystem, the ongoing fee is 0, which is smaller than all 3 of your listed examples. Also, as opposed to "simple command-line build scripts", in non-Apple ecosystem, there is no script required to release versions. I don't see the argument weakened, but rather strengthened.

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#62

Post by least »

I certainly don't blame the developer for not supporting macOS, but the reasoning he outlines in his post aren't particularly compelling to me. It seems to me porting his game over to MacOS in itself would be a larger undertaking and more valid complaint than the ones he's listed.

The notarization process potentially reducing the number of builds he can push to users in a day from 6 to something less seems like a feature, not a negative.

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#63

Post by qtplatypus »

Aeolun wrote: post #56
swatcoder wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The developer has every right to support or abandon whatever platforms they want. But there’s some FUD here: 1. There is no review step. Notarization is an automated process that takes about an hour. It doesn’t require a substantive change to your build process. You just submit your build, get a notary receipt file back from Apple about an hour later, and “staple” it to your build using a single tool. It’s not burden…

> It’s not burdensome As defined by who? 1. Submit build 2. Wait an hour 3. Retrieve notary receipt 4. Staple to correct build 5. Upload build Sure sounds more burdensome to me than: 1. Upload build Edit: Lol, people arguing with reality. It may or may not be a good thing, but arguing that it doesn’t add any burden to the developer seems hard to me.

Wouldn't you have jenkins (or whatever your build system is) do that all for you?

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#64

Post by btown »

judge2020 wrote: post #19

Notarization and needing a paid developer account doesn't change the requirement for running software on OSX relative to the previous version. Before, you needed to sign with a "developer ID distribution" certificate if you wanted to avoid having to tell users to "ctrl-click DMG then click open" to bypass gatekeeper. This certificate required a paid developer account. Now you can still distribute un-signed, un-notari…

I imagine Steam doesn't allow Gatekeeper bypasses. Still, notarization is designed to be easy to script: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/notarizing_y... - so it really shouldn't be an issue.

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#65

Post by mackey »

jchw wrote: post #12
dexter0 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to pay the $99/yr to be in the developer program, to access to the notarization service.

Also I heard that you need fairly new Mac hardware to actually use the notarization service. Now try to integrate it with your CI, because the feedback that the notarization is complete is sent via email. (FWIW: I don’t have first-hand experience, though I still have an Apple developer license. Probably won’t renew.)

I am not a Mac developer, but this doc https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/notarizin... claims you need 10.13 or above, which seems to run on 2009-2010 hardware. I know the latest version of Xcode 10 requires 10.14, but even that is about ~2012 hardware and newer. I think the upcoming 10.15 also has the same hardware requirements as 10.14.

Anyway, even if we say 10.14, I wouldn't call 2012 models fairly new.

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#66

Post by qtplatypus »

falcolas wrote: post #42
dickeytk wrote: post #5

I’m glad Apple is locking down binaries. It’s terrifying what malicious binaries are capable of. For games in particular there should be better sand boxing options.

Signed binaries don't stop malicious binaries. It can help prevent the spread of malicious binaries once they've been identified as malicious, but it does nothing to stop the initial mayhem.

I don't think that the signed binaries are intended to prevent malicious binaries but rather instead to create an evidence trail once an malicious binary has been submitted.

Since you have to sign with a key that you have payed apple to authorize. Apple has the payment details that connect you and the signed binary together. In addition the membership has licence conditions that in turn allow Apple to sue you.

The intent is a deterrent effect.

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#67

Post by floatingatoll »

CrendKing wrote: post #61
floatingatoll wrote: post #60

This article fails to address two key points that could significantly weaken its core arguments if answered. Those points and the questions that arise from each are: 1) Apple charges a flat rate of $100/year for notarization access. Steam and Mac App Store take 15-30%. What additional percentage of Mac sales (either subscription and/or one-time) is being spent on this annually by this developer? $100/year & 100 units…

The argument from the article is that in non-Apple ecosystem, the ongoing fee is 0, which is smaller than all 3 of your listed examples. Also, as opposed to "simple command-line build scripts", in non-Apple ecosystem, there is no script required to release versions. I don't see the argument weakened, but rather strengthened.

Your argument is based on an unstated framing assumption:

“A cheaper and simpler process is better for developers and users, and therefore the absence of both cost and complexity is universally the best solution, without regard for any other factors.”

That is not a widely agreed-upon assumption. Since the post relies on this same assumption-by-framing approach, its arguments are weakened by their dependence on an unstated assumption. Answering my questions would force that assumption to be considered openly - and potentially challenged.

Is it better for users that Apple is doing this, regardless of the extra cost and time it assigns to developers?

That’s the question that should be being asked here. Unfortunately, it is not.

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#68

Post by dickeytk »

falcolas wrote: post #42
dickeytk wrote: post #5

I’m glad Apple is locking down binaries. It’s terrifying what malicious binaries are capable of. For games in particular there should be better sand boxing options.

Signed binaries don't stop malicious binaries. It can help prevent the spread of malicious binaries once they've been identified as malicious, but it does nothing to stop the initial mayhem.

That’s not true. Apple prevents unsigned binaries from being executed at all.

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#69

Post by htfu »

rcruzeiro wrote: post #58
swatcoder wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The developer has every right to support or abandon whatever platforms they want. But there’s some FUD here: 1. There is no review step. Notarization is an automated process that takes about an hour. It doesn’t require a substantive change to your build process. You just submit your build, get a notary receipt file back from Apple about an hour later, and “staple” it to your build using a single tool. It’s not burden…

Your last point pretty much sums it all up. The dev seems to be basically looking for an excuse to drop the platform.

As far as I can tell they never supported it in the first place. Entire thing is really weird.

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#70

Post by judge2020 »

btown wrote: post #64
judge2020 wrote: post #19

Notarization and needing a paid developer account doesn't change the requirement for running software on OSX relative to the previous version. Before, you needed to sign with a "developer ID distribution" certificate if you wanted to avoid having to tell users to "ctrl-click DMG then click open" to bypass gatekeeper. This certificate required a paid developer account. Now you can still distribute un-signed, un-notari…

I imagine Steam doesn't allow Gatekeeper bypasses. Still, notarization is designed to be easy to script: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/notarizing_y... - so it really shouldn't be an issue.

The only issue is it can take an hour or more - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21110622 polling for the status to finalize would waste build minutes on your CI.
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