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Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

abc.net.au

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Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#71

Post by ClumsyPilot »

scoot wrote: post #22
jedimastert wrote: post #3

The title should be more explicit about the fact that they're talking about "military drones" as opposed to quad-copters, which was my first thought. It's pretty obvious at first glance after the first click, but still... As far as the article itself, it feels somewhat worrying that the people who implemented these programs didn't think people would be bothered about killing other people. Someone had to have thought…

For "quad-coptor" substitute multi-rotor (not all are quads). The fact that you associate the term "drone" with hobby aircraft is a sad inditement of todays "press", who, in their attempt to demonise said multi-rotors (or to downplay the rise of the military drone?) have managed to confuse the general public as to the difference.

I consider press super-ignorant, rather than malevolent, but I sympathise with your frustration.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#72

Post by ClumsyPilot »

nesadi wrote: post #25
tehjoker wrote: post #5

Love how the perspective of this argument is that instead of drone pilots succumbing to a real sense that what they are doing is unjustifiable, this guy is an "ethicist" that is attempting to say that we need to find a way to train morality out of people so they can push remote kill buttons and feel fine.

It's a matter of perspective. For people who believe a strong military is important to protect their own country and in a geopolitical world where military capability is everything that matters, what else is there? If a conflict breaks out, nobody's going to stop just because some military operators could be traumatized. At most you get to choose which military personnel are affected, but overall there's no "good" ou…

Back in feudal times wars did stop because army was not motivated. This is a legitimate problem. That why we demonize 'the enemy'.

Take it to the extreme, and you have nazi atrocities and 'just following orders'.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#73

Post by glloydell »

matz1 wrote: post #67
glloydell wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that the main objective of the job is to achieve the strategic objectives of the country engaged in armed conflict. Indiscriminate killing completely devoid of a moral or ethical framework definitely does not accomplish that objective.

Thats more of a higher level objective and sometimes to achieve that objective, killing people is required. Yes Indiscriminate killing is a problem but that is a different problem. The article is in regards of actual pushing the button, I'm assuming the killing is already decided after careful judgement .

It doesn't matter how much care was taken in making the initial judgement if the information using it to reach it is flawed, or if the situation changes in the time between the decision being made and it's execution.

I'd imagine that someone with no qualms about taking human life would be far less likely to confirm the validity and accuracy of those justifications.

I don't think anyone wants drone operators who dismiss a group of children playing near a target because they don't place a value on human life.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#74

Post by ClumsyPilot »

anigbrowl wrote: post #2

The other day a drone in Afghanistan killed 30 civilians. Rather than being ISIS members holding a meeting, they were pine nut farmers gathering around a fire to relax after their day's work. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-attack-drones... I don't really give a fuck about the psychological condition of the drone pilots except insofar as it puts their children at risk. They and their commanders should…

At least place the blame where is belongs, drone pilots don't get to choose who to kill.

I don't think they recruit with "bombing Afghan farmers is great fun!"

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#75

Post by ClumsyPilot »

glloydell wrote: post #64
glogla wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have the drone pilots not thrown their humanity away willingly? I think there's s difference between doubting humanity of someone because of skin color or sexual orientation or natinality or whatever, and someone who voluntarily became a murderer as a day job. The pilots can stop killing people any day. They continually chose not to.

Do you believe that there is ever a justification for taking human life?

Well, self defence and protection of loved ones is the obvious one.

Then goes the spectrum. Suppose someone is taking your property, can you employ violence to protect it? What if there is 1% risk of death to the thief? What if its 10%?

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#76

Post by devoply »

glogla wrote: post #53
mieseratte wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taliban hosted AQ, gave us 9/11. We may be stuck in a quagmire, but there’s more to the Taliban than banning heroin and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

Saudi Arabia gave you 9/11 yet your president is super friendly with them. It's almost as if you're looking for excuse to kill people.

[flagged]

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#77

Post by glloydell »

brokenmachine wrote: post #66
glloydell wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment strikes me as textbook dehumanization of the drone pilots. "Dehumanizing the enemy involves denying the enemy’s humanity by negating in the enemy the characteristics normally associated with human beings, such as morality and compassion, and instead associating the enemy with acts of evil and depravity that merit forceful action and retaliation." https://sk.sagepub.com/reference/the-sage-encyclopedia-of-…

Please imagine an Afghani drone killing 30 civilians in Washington. Then think again about who is dehumanizing who.

I think the process of dehumanization occurs on all sides of the equation, and it's something to be questioned and examined whenever it happens.

Engaging in the same process and behavior damages the intellectual credibility of an argument because it allows you to ignore potentially relevant information. It also significant diminishes any moral authority you may be laying claim to.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#78

Post by rasz »

glloydell wrote: post #41
hackeer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shooting people from a drone is definitely not a life or death decision. And doing it just because they look like criminals is not a casualty of war, it's outright murder. Any cop would be in death row for pulling something like this in American Soil.

A cop who followed the same regulations and rules of engagement as a soldier would be committing a crime. Because they have entirely different jobs, in entirely different contexts, with entirely different rules, serving entirely different purposes.

sure https://boingboing.net/2019/09/27/breakdown-of-how-sacrament...

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#79

Post by rasz »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #74
anigbrowl wrote: post #2

The other day a drone in Afghanistan killed 30 civilians. Rather than being ISIS members holding a meeting, they were pine nut farmers gathering around a fire to relax after their day's work. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-attack-drones... I don't really give a fuck about the psychological condition of the drone pilots except insofar as it puts their children at risk. They and their commanders should…

At least place the blame where is belongs, drone pilots don't get to choose who to kill. I don't think they recruit with "bombing Afghan farmers is great fun!"

>I don't think they recruit with "bombing Afghan farmers is great fun!"

Why would you not think that???!?! "Recruited at video game fairs by military leaders who know the value of games that glamourise 'militainment' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGA8RFB0VSw

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#80

Post by glloydell »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #75
glloydell wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe that there is ever a justification for taking human life?

Well, self defence and protection of loved ones is the obvious one. Then goes the spectrum. Suppose someone is taking your property, can you employ violence to protect it? What if there is 1% risk of death to the thief? What if its 10%?

That's an excellent question, I'd say that's the kind of assessment that most likely needs to be made in the moment.

I'd prefer the people whose job it is to make those assessments on a daily basis to have a strong moral and ethical framework, and to have the psychological and institutional support to maintain a connection with their humanity.

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