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Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

abc.net.au

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Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#41

Post by glloydell »

hackeer wrote: post #17
golergka wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you really lack perspective on what any warfare is: it's always critical, life or death decisions that have to be taken without sufficient information. US civilian to combatant casualty ratio in the recent conflicts have been significantly better than any other modern wars as well. So, what do you suggest instead?

Shooting people from a drone is definitely not a life or death decision. And doing it just because they look like criminals is not a casualty of war, it's outright murder. Any cop would be in death row for pulling something like this in American Soil.

A cop who followed the same regulations and rules of engagement as a soldier would be committing a crime.

Because they have entirely different jobs, in entirely different contexts, with entirely different rules, serving entirely different purposes.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#42

Post by devoply »

harimau777 wrote: post #37
devoply wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how brainwashed most Americans are about this conflict, we might as well as be living in 1984's world. Have you heard the ancient saying one man's freedom fighter, another man's terrorist? What would happen if no terrorists had been trained by the US (and their Islamic puppet that wags the dog, Saudi Arabia)? The Soviet Union would have fallen and Afghanistan would be a normal country like its neighbors. >…

Nothing in your post contradicts what I said. I'm arguing that the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist is whether they target civilians. So when fighting the Soviets or later the US, the Taliban where not terrorists; although that doesn't necessarily mean that they were good people.

> difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist is whether they target civilians

Then what would you call the 9,000 or so civilians killed by US and allied forces in the past 10 years. Or the 30,000 injured civilians?

O'Rly?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War#Muja...

> The mujahideen favoured sabotage operations. The more common types of sabotage included damaging power lines, knocking out pipelines and radio stations, blowing up government office buildings, air terminals, hotels, cinemas, and so on. In the border region with Pakistan, the mujahideen would often launch 800 rockets per day. Between April 1985 and January 1987, they carried out over 23,500 shelling attacks on government targets. The mujahideen surveyed firing positions that they normally located near villages within the range of Soviet artillery posts, putting the villagers in danger of death from Soviet retaliation. The mujahideen used land mines heavily. Often, they would enlist the services of the local inhabitants, even children. Mujahideen praying in Shultan Valley, 1987

> They concentrated on both civilian and military targets, knocking out bridges, closing major roads, attacking convoys, disrupting the electric power system and industrial production, and attacking police stations and Soviet military installations and air bases. They assassinated government officials and PDPA members, and laid siege to small rural outposts. In March 1982, a bomb exploded at the Ministry of Education, damaging several buildings. In the same month, a widespread power failure darkened Kabul when a pylon on the transmission line from the Naghlu power station was blown up. In June 1982 a column of about 1,000 young communist party members sent out to work in the Panjshir valley were ambushed within 30 km of Kabul, with heavy loss of life. On September 4, 1985, insurgents shot down a domestic Bakhtar Airlines plane as it took off from Kandahar airport, killing all 52 people aboard.

> Mujahideen groups used for assassination had three to five men in each. After they received their mission to kill certain government officials, they busied themselves with studying his pattern of life and its details and then selecting the method of fulfilling their established mission. They practiced shooting at automobiles, shooting out of automobiles, laying mines in government accommodation or houses, using poison, and rigging explosive charges in transport.

In May 1985, the seven principal rebel organizations formed the Seven Party Mujahideen Alliance to coordinate their military operations against the Soviet army. Late in 1985, the groups were active in and around Kabul, unleashing rocket attacks and conducting operations against the communist government.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#43

Post by e12e »

rhizome wrote: post #20
tomohawk wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US did overreact and attempted to do nation building in Afghanistan. But your prescription for letting them sort things out on their own has already been tried, and it was a colossal failure. The government hosted terrorist organizations who killed thousands of people in the US and mounted attacks on civilians of many nationalities around the world.

Afghanistan has been a known quantity for decades: heroin or Taliban, pick one. Beyond that, what's the international opinion on Erik Prince?

Decades? How about the British presence in the region?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Anglo-Afghan_War

(and so on and so forth..)

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#44

Post by prawn »

scoot wrote: post #22
jedimastert wrote: post #3

The title should be more explicit about the fact that they're talking about "military drones" as opposed to quad-copters, which was my first thought. It's pretty obvious at first glance after the first click, but still... As far as the article itself, it feels somewhat worrying that the people who implemented these programs didn't think people would be bothered about killing other people. Someone had to have thought…

For "quad-coptor" substitute multi-rotor (not all are quads). The fact that you associate the term "drone" with hobby aircraft is a sad inditement of todays "press", who, in their attempt to demonise said multi-rotors (or to downplay the rise of the military drone?) have managed to confuse the general public as to the difference.

I think you ascribe too much malice to the press here. Drone is what the public understand them to be called. I fly a drone and that's the term used by everyone who raises the topic with me. I don't know that they led by the press, though it'd obviously be a feedback loop.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#45

Post by matz1 »

kbenson wrote: post #28
matz1 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just hire people who has different moral values. Is it so difficult to find? I personally don't have the problem pushing the kill button.

I think what we are seeing is people with different moral values that thought they wouldn't have a problem having a problem, so I'm not sure your suggestion would help (and you may want to consider that before volunteering yourself for something that might affect your mental health). I can't help but view this as similar to someone offering to work as a nurse "because they don't get sick".

Yes, there are certainly people like that. But I'm referring to people with different moral value who really are wouldn't have problem. Its not that rare isn't it?

Its different, because everyone can get sick. The more accurate analogy is someone offering to work as nurse because they are not afraid of blood.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#46

Post by glloydell »

matz1 wrote: post #24
tehjoker wrote: post #5

Love how the perspective of this argument is that instead of drone pilots succumbing to a real sense that what they are doing is unjustifiable, this guy is an "ethicist" that is attempting to say that we need to find a way to train morality out of people so they can push remote kill buttons and feel fine.

Or just hire people who has different moral values. Is it so difficult to find? I personally don't have the problem pushing the kill button.

I'd say it's absolutely vital to have the responsibility in the hands of do have problems with "pushing the kill button", and then provide them with psychological support services to handle that duty.

Giving people with no qualms or moral struggles with taking human life the tools to do so on a massive scale is an absolutely terrifying idea.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#47

Post by prawn »

leonidasv wrote: post #23
jedimastert wrote: post #3

The title should be more explicit about the fact that they're talking about "military drones" as opposed to quad-copters, which was my first thought. It's pretty obvious at first glance after the first click, but still... As far as the article itself, it feels somewhat worrying that the people who implemented these programs didn't think people would be bothered about killing other people. Someone had to have thought…

I don't think it isn't clear. Reading "drone pilot" along with "sniper" instantly gave me the idea that the article was talking about military personnel and not hobbyists, long before I clicked.

Before reading the article, I assumed it was about hobbyist drone pilots and how we might judge situations from a detached perspective. I suspect the detachment changes the way I view risk in subtle ways when flying.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#48

Post by e12e »

nesadi wrote: post #25
tehjoker wrote: post #5

Love how the perspective of this argument is that instead of drone pilots succumbing to a real sense that what they are doing is unjustifiable, this guy is an "ethicist" that is attempting to say that we need to find a way to train morality out of people so they can push remote kill buttons and feel fine.

It's a matter of perspective. For people who believe a strong military is important to protect their own country and in a geopolitical world where military capability is everything that matters, what else is there? If a conflict breaks out, nobody's going to stop just because some military operators could be traumatized. At most you get to choose which military personnel are affected, but overall there's no "good" ou…

There's a difference between having problems committing war crimes by employing tactical weapons on civilians and being willing to attack a military force?

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#49

Post by glogla »

glloydell wrote: post #36
anigbrowl wrote: post #2

The other day a drone in Afghanistan killed 30 civilians. Rather than being ISIS members holding a meeting, they were pine nut farmers gathering around a fire to relax after their day's work. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-attack-drones... I don't really give a fuck about the psychological condition of the drone pilots except insofar as it puts their children at risk. They and their commanders should…

Your comment strikes me as textbook dehumanization of the drone pilots. "Dehumanizing the enemy involves denying the enemy’s humanity by negating in the enemy the characteristics normally associated with human beings, such as morality and compassion, and instead associating the enemy with acts of evil and depravity that merit forceful action and retaliation." https://sk.sagepub.com/reference/the-sage-encyclopedia-of-…

Have the drone pilots not thrown their humanity away willingly?

I think there's s difference between doubting humanity of someone because of skin color or sexual orientation or natinality or whatever, and someone who voluntarily became a murderer as a day job.

The pilots can stop killing people any day. They continually chose not to.

Re: Drone pilots could be experiencing 'sniper's syndrome'

#50

Post by matz1 »

glloydell wrote: post #46
matz1 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just hire people who has different moral values. Is it so difficult to find? I personally don't have the problem pushing the kill button.

I'd say it's absolutely vital to have the responsibility in the hands of do have problems with "pushing the kill button", and then provide them with psychological support services to handle that duty. Giving people with no qualms or moral struggles with taking human life the tools to do so on a massive scale is an absolutely terrifying idea.

Well, it depends on what the main objective of the job is. If it to kill someone then do you really want to give it to someone that have moral struggle?
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