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Number theorist fears many proofs widely considered to be true are wrong

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Re: Number theorist fears many proofs widely considered to be true are wrong

#61

This just seems like a native advertisement for Lean...

I am not that perturbed by whatever framework they use, tools to translate the bulk of the majority of proofs from Lean to MetaMath to [...] and back will be made,

the more important thing is that the number of humans aware of the existence of this tech and the more actually use it the better society will be off in the long run

the following may seem totally impossible today but seems a lot less impossible to people who have been thinking about this for a long time: once sufficient mathematics has been translated, people can start adding physics postulates, one most physics has been inserted we can start formally verifying (up to validity of postulates on top of axioms) not just proper operation of digital circuits etc but also power plants and so on, and once interacting with proof systems becomes as widespread as alphabetic literacy, people might one day be able to formalize and vote on their requirements of society and policy, see predicted perverse incentives, or decide that policy can only be enacted when facets of their consequences can be proven. We might one day not vote on promises of strategy, also not vote on strategy, but rather on outcomes!

I know it sounds absurd.

Re: Number theorist fears many proofs widely considered to be true are wrong

#62

Suggestion to rely on AI for proof verification is just laughable. Neuron weights instead of formal definitions. So reliable.

That's not the suggestion. Proof verification is easy (for a proof written in a formal system). Proof search is hard. Many (most/all?) proof assistants heavily use heuristics to guide the proof search. Machine learning on a database of proofs could lead to superior heuristics and make proving stuff in the formal systems easier.

Proving stuff in these systems is still harder than natural language proofs, so making them easier could increase adoption, which would make mathematicians' results more robust/rigorous.

Re: Number theorist fears many proofs widely considered to be true are wrong

#63

Suggestion to rely on AI for proof verification is just laughable. Neuron weights instead of formal definitions. So reliable.

You seem to think "AI" means machine learning. In this case it does not. Theorem prover systems don't use neural nets.

Re: Number theorist fears many proofs widely considered to be true are wrong

#64
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t mean that it’s wrong, it means that you need to read more. In a lot of fields, undergraduate material doesn’t qualify you to read papers, a PhD does. If all papers actually were written to undergraduate level, many would be 500 pages long. Who has time to write a book-length exposition of the basics of their field every time they publish? I mean, have you ever published a technical work? If so, did you g…

Suppose a narrow field where only two human beings can understand. How could the society judge the progress of the field or the merit of a new project? I don't think it is possible to avoid collusion or groupthink in such a field and it would be difficult to differentiate the two. So does it mean we should curb some superhuman thinking and let them explain better to other human being? I'd think so. It is all about ba…

Scientists and mathematicians already spend an extreme amount of energy trying to think of the shortest, cleanest possible route for people to learn their fields. The resulting documents take years to create, and are called textbooks. (At least, the good textbooks are like this.) Often people will work for thousands of hours on their books, essentially for free. Students go from outsiders to participants by reading them, all the time.

The problem is that things genuinely are hard, and there's only so much compression you can do before you're reduced to meaningless handwaving. Textbooks are already compressed by a factor of 100 relative to the original research literature, sometimes even oversimplified. Demanding something a factor of 100 better than a textbook is going to get you something like one of those useless "learn C++ in 24 hours" paperbacks.

Re: Number theorist fears many proofs widely considered to be true are wrong

#65
post #21
post #9

Headline is waaaay overblown, but not all of it is total hyperbole -- checkout out arxiv and try to read the abstract from just about any paper. It's basically totally impermeable. I'm almost done with an undergraduate degree in math and basically have no idea what ~90% of the research is about at anything other than a topical level. This is fine, it's written for specialists in the field (hopefully), but damn, for m…

I did some undergraduate research and ended up getting published. My initial drafts were written with prose so that I (and hopefully any novice) could understand. However, my professor wasn’t happy with it so I got some help from one of his grad students to re-write it. By the end of it I could barely understand my own paper. IMO the final paper had too much technical jargon which was convoluting some simple concepts…

Are you sure though that your extra stuff was actually on correct an on point? AFAIK in math you have the primary notions, the axioms then all the previous definitions and proofs, maybe I am imagining somethng different then what actually happened though, an example would be good but it may not be possible for you to remember or express it in a comment here.

Re: Number theorist fears many proofs widely considered to be true are wrong

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Metamath is awesome if you're willing to slum it :) https://jiggerwit.wordpress.com/2018/04/14/the-architecture-...

How long does it take your preferred proof assistant to prove things? Metamath's standard set.mm takes only about 10s to prove everything .

My preferred proof assistant is definitely Metamath, I think it just needs a big company to come along and build an awesome front end for it and it will become the standard.

Re: Number theorist fears many proofs widely considered to be true are wrong

#67
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I find this interesting, because it seems to confirm a suspicion I held. I "only" did some undergrad math during my computer science (but due to a lack of specialization at my university back then it was "real math", i.e. we took the same courses as the math students). My impression often was that a lot of this stuff isn't so hard if you "get to it", but it's clouded in a lot of complicated language that makes it…

> My impression often was that a lot of this stuff isn't so hard if you "get to it", but it's clouded in a lot of complicated language that makes it sound harder than it really is. I never dared to postulate that this is a more general problem of math, but your words sound like that's exactly what is happening. I "only" have a masters degree in Math, but this sounds really wrong to me. Most advanced math concepts are…

I think the GP is trying to say that, once you get past all of the definitions and proofs, the underlying idea is almost always relatively simple.

I do agree that it's pretty hard to be rigorous without setting up all of this edifice, but I've also found that it's very easy (at least, as an applied mathematician) to take an idea and continue generalizing it until the original application becomes a very small corollary of the new statement—one that appears usually unmotivated and "magical."

In some sense, this is a wonderful thing: you can usually prove a much stronger statement using the same tools you used to prove the weaker one, but in some sense it makes many things unbelievably difficult to understand as a first or even second-time reader.

To give an example, I was reading a book on dissipative PDE-solving as an optimization problem. The book's main chapter starts with a theorem that is so general and so far removed from any one specific application that, even as someone who works on several related fields, I struggled to understand its significance. The book then spends the next several chapters showing how existence/uniqueness of solutions to a bunch of PDEs are all corollaries (with some work) of this theorem.

The problem I have is that the presentation would've been much clearer going the other way. Start with the easy-to-prove existence theorems for the PDEs you care about (which mostly relied on simple tools and could've been proven in a few lines) and build up the generalization to the "main theorem." There, the reader doesn't have to guess the meaning (and/or marvel at the "ingenuity") of the original statement since the motivation is perfectly natural and clear, and they certainly don't have to struggle through a proof without a clear ending. Plus, you usually get the nice side-benefit that, by the time you present the most general statement, the proof is almost always immediate ± some small tricks.

While I do think that math requires a large amount of definitions to work and to put everything on rigorous footing, I also think there's this kind of weird way of writing where definitions and proofs are presented as "magical" and then shown to be right or useful later, rather than the other way around. This is fine for a few things, but I've found that most presentations that work don't follow this template (yet most mathematical papers I've read sadly do).

Re: Number theorist fears many proofs widely considered to be true are wrong

#68
post #38
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did some undergraduate research and ended up getting published. My initial drafts were written with prose so that I (and hopefully any novice) could understand. However, my professor wasn’t happy with it so I got some help from one of his grad students to re-write it. By the end of it I could barely understand my own paper. IMO the final paper had too much technical jargon which was convoluting some simple concepts…

So I find this interesting, because it seems to confirm a suspicion I held. I "only" did some undergrad math during my computer science (but due to a lack of specialization at my university back then it was "real math", i.e. we took the same courses as the math students). My impression often was that a lot of this stuff isn't so hard if you "get to it", but it's clouded in a lot of complicated language that makes it…

No, there is no magic formula to make hard things easy. This is the same as the classic "monads are burritos" thing. A programmer spends a week trying to understand monads, and finally it clicks when he makes an analogy with wrapping burritos. So that must mean that burritos are the real way to explain monads, and everybody who didn't use the burrito analogy was being obfuscatory on purpose, right?

Of course not! If that programmer than goes out and tells somebody else that "monads are burritos", they'll have no idea what that vague, nearly nonsensical statement means. You need the context of grappling with the idea over time for an analogy to actually help.

Good textbooks are already extremely optimized for ease of learning; the authors of these books are universally people who started in your position, thinking that everybody would be so much easier to learn if it were just written in sensible language, usually the language they were happening to use when the idea finally clicked for them. And the result ends up hard to understand, because the concept genuinely is hard to understand.

Re: Number theorist fears many proofs widely considered to be true are wrong

#69
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My impression often was that a lot of this stuff isn't so hard if you "get to it", but it's clouded in a lot of complicated language that makes it sound harder than it really is. I never dared to postulate that this is a more general problem of math, but your words sound like that's exactly what is happening. I "only" have a masters degree in Math, but this sounds really wrong to me. Most advanced math concepts are…

I think the GP is trying to say that, once you get past all of the definitions and proofs, the underlying idea is almost always relatively simple. I do agree that it's pretty hard to be rigorous without setting up all of this edifice, but I've also found that it's very easy (at least, as an applied mathematician) to take an idea and continue generalizing it until the original application becomes a very small corollar…

People will complain about that too. The introduction is "redundant" or "trivial". The book is a long, bloated slog. (Since what you're proposing will unavoidably increase the page count.) The author intentionally confuses students by alluding to some "main theorem" but waiting a hundred pages to say what it is, instead of putting it in front where it belongs.

For every complaint about a textbook, there is an equal and opposite complaint if it had done the opposite thing. At some point we have to accept that the underlying concepts inherently take time and effort to assimilate, that the easiest style to learn from is different for different people, and that the authors really did think about all these issues when they were writing. They clearly care about exposition, otherwise they would not have written a book in the first place, a thankless and financially useless task.

Re: Number theorist fears many proofs widely considered to be true are wrong

#70
post #53
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t mean that it’s wrong, it means that you need to read more. In a lot of fields, undergraduate material doesn’t qualify you to read papers, a PhD does. If all papers actually were written to undergraduate level, many would be 500 pages long. Who has time to write a book-length exposition of the basics of their field every time they publish? I mean, have you ever published a technical work? If so, did you g…

The problem is really that a PhD doesn't get you to reading level either. It might get you there in only one specialized subfield. And there might only be a few dozen other people who are also at reading level for that area. How much do you trust that small group to catch every single subtle, abstract error in papers published in the area?

I don't, I'm just saying that trying to make every paper accessible to undergrads (or high schoolers, or elementary schoolers, or whatever) is going to bloat their length by so much that errors become harder to check, not easier.
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