A Prison Lifer Comes Home • Hacker News Board

Re: A Prison Lifer Comes Home

#21

Post by wespiser_2018 » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #3

> Imprisoned for decades for a crime he committed as a juvenile So, for a single, first time, first degree murder, Pennsylvania gives "a mandatory life sentence without the possibility of parole, including for juveniles"? What kind of medieval backwater has such laws? And how is that working out for them? [1] Compared to e.g. countries which have much smaller sentences for the same type of crimes (especially for juve…

For the Norway example, that offender is being held in solitary confinement in very harsh conditions, and it's very likely his sentence will be extended indefinitely. It's not a good example of a more human criminal justice outcome, considering how harmful we know the effects of solitary confinement to be on mental health of those held.

Re: A Prison Lifer Comes Home

#22

Post by pmiller2 » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 6:03 PM UTC

craigsmansion wrote: post #15

rayiner wrote: post #2

The article leaves out some facts. While Fennell’s participation in the attack (at the age of 17) was sufficient to convict him for murder, regardless of who ultimately delivered the killing blow, the jury may not have convicted him for murder (or a judge may have later commuted his sentence) had he testified against the man who directly killed the victim: https://www.newspapers.com/image/?clipping_id=19706704&fcfTo.…

> Being 17 or acting as part of a group don’t make you less culpable. Yes it does. Boys do strange things, boys in groups do stranger things, like not testifying against each other, especially if they feel society has abandoned them and the world is against them. Normal societies are set up to deal with that or prevent it. Fix your bloody society.

Sorry, but a 17 year old knows what it means to rob and murder someone and knows the difference between right and wrong. That’s the basic criterion for culpability.

Re: A Prison Lifer Comes Home

#23

Post by rayiner » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #12

DenisM wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule when an offender kills (regardless of intent to kill) in the commission of a [felony], the offender, and also the offender's accomplices or co-conspirators, may be found guilty of murder. Which is to say, he was guilty from the get-go.

Is this common in western countries, or one of those "only in the US and/or some third world country" things, like the "three-strikes" and the "death penalty" (even for juveniles) laws?

The felony murder rule comes from British common law. While it’s been abolished in the UK, Canada, and parts of Australia. But civil law jurisdictions have statutory crimes that achieve the same effect. For example, in Germany this crime probably could’ve been prosecuted as “robbery with deadly outcome,” which can carry life imprisonment.

Re: A Prison Lifer Comes Home

#24

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #19

awillen wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Norway example is misleading for people who are primarily familiar with US sentencing. Twenty one years is the maximum sentence one can be given initially, but it can be extended five years at a time at the end of the sentence. There are no limits on the number of five year extensions, so a twenty one year sentence can effectively be a life sentence. It's basically equivalent to a US sentence of life in prison wi…

Yes, but it will also be far more common to be actually released at the default (or close). Heck, "real" life sentences in the US are handed out as peanuts... Also no death penalty. Plus much much nicer prison terms (very human hotel-like prisons, permission to study, no solitary crap as punishment, very low recidivism rates, prisoners can take leaves -like "vacations" and come back, etc).

Do you think your example is going to get released after 21 years?

Because that's what they were pointing out, that your example was an extreme and likely not to receive the common treatment.

Re: A Prison Lifer Comes Home

#25

Post by coldtea » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 6:09 PM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #6

coldtea wrote: post #3

> Imprisoned for decades for a crime he committed as a juvenile So, for a single, first time, first degree murder, Pennsylvania gives "a mandatory life sentence without the possibility of parole, including for juveniles"? What kind of medieval backwater has such laws? And how is that working out for them? [1] Compared to e.g. countries which have much smaller sentences for the same type of crimes (especially for juve…

I can’t tell if your post was being sarcastic or sincere. It’s a first degree murder. Putting him away for life is what he deserves and others (law-abiding free citizens) should not have to bear the risk that he would commit more extreme crimes given the extreme nature of the crime here. That’s not medieval or inhumane, it’s appropriate and common sense. The relation you imply between laws, sentencing, and crime rate…

>It’s a first degree murder. Putting him away for life is what he deserves and others (law-abiding free citizens) should not have to bear the risk that he would commit more extreme crimes given the extreme nature of the crime here

Well, not all cultures on Earth, especially western ones, share the above revenge-motivated old-testament-style viewpoint on the law. Perhaps that's why they manage to have less crime, less recidivism, less mass shootings, and far lower murder rates, with far-far lower incarceration rates and no death penalty.

In the end, a society gets what they deserve, and those revengeful reap what they sow. Like those clinging to guns for "protection", and dying from gun crime (or from their own gun-owning family members).

>The relation you imply between laws, sentencing, and crime rates between different locations and demographics is not causal and doesn’t account for various other factors, and is therefore irrelevant.

Well, it's not the only factor, but it's a telling part of the belief systems, structures, and overall culture a society operates. It's not just lost in the noise of other factors, as it's irrelevant. Culturally, and in terms of recidivism etc, it's very relevant (like the long history of racism inspired incarceration is). Besides, the proof in the pudding is in the eating.

As they say, "so, how does that work out for you"?

Re: A Prison Lifer Comes Home

#26

Post by superflit » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 6:13 PM UTC

I think they should do as the laws in Brazil.

In Brazil, It is not allowed to give sentences for more than 30 years, and if the prisoner has good behavior, he is out in 1/6 of his sentence.

And still, if he is not caught in 24h, was his first murder and has a job he may wait for the final judgment outside prison (after all appeals).

Brazil is big, multi-diverse and is very nice.

The Brazilian penal code is the most human and modern criminal code. And it brought great success as [1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Brazil)

Nowadays we have a "repressive", "gun-loving" president that wants the revert our success. [2](https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/22/brazils-murder-rate-fin...)

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Brazil

[2] - https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/22/brazils-murder-rate-fin...

Re: A Prison Lifer Comes Home

#27

Post by ljm » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 6:15 PM UTC

craigsmansion wrote: post #15

rayiner wrote: post #2

The article leaves out some facts. While Fennell’s participation in the attack (at the age of 17) was sufficient to convict him for murder, regardless of who ultimately delivered the killing blow, the jury may not have convicted him for murder (or a judge may have later commuted his sentence) had he testified against the man who directly killed the victim: https://www.newspapers.com/image/?clipping_id=19706704&fcfTo.…

> Being 17 or acting as part of a group don’t make you less culpable. Yes it does. Boys do strange things, boys in groups do stranger things, like not testifying against each other, especially if they feel society has abandoned them and the world is against them. Normal societies are set up to deal with that or prevent it. Fix your bloody society.

I would agree more if this didn’t sound like a ‘boys will be boys’ defence.

If you want to fix society you also have to leave that kind of belief in the past.

In this case, the guy is also black. The article avoids the racial aspect and focusses on other circumstances, but American society has never been favourable to black folk.

Re: A Prison Lifer Comes Home

#28

Post by echelon » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 6:17 PM UTC

superflit wrote: post #26

I think they should do as the laws in Brazil. In Brazil, It is not allowed to give sentences for more than 30 years, and if the prisoner has good behavior, he is out in 1/6 of his sentence. And still, if he is not caught in 24h, was his first murder and has a job he may wait for the final judgment outside prison (after all appeals). Brazil is big, multi-diverse and is very nice. The Brazilian penal code is the most h…

Brazil has one of the highest murder rates in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_murder_rate

I'm not an expert, but at face value I'm not sure their system is effective. I'd like to see data on reoffenders and deterrence.

Re: A Prison Lifer Comes Home

#29

Post by brazilman123 » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 6:20 PM UTC

superflit wrote: post #26

I think they should do as the laws in Brazil. In Brazil, It is not allowed to give sentences for more than 30 years, and if the prisoner has good behavior, he is out in 1/6 of his sentence. And still, if he is not caught in 24h, was his first murder and has a job he may wait for the final judgment outside prison (after all appeals). Brazil is big, multi-diverse and is very nice. The Brazilian penal code is the most h…

Brazil has a big crime problem, a huge murder rate.

There are people who simply aren't fit to be in society. There are people who get out of prison after their 5 years of good behavior, and immediately a week later are raping someone again. Why do the victims have less value than the violent murderer/rapist criminals?

It is simply shocking to me you think it's ok for murderers to be out of jail if they have a job.

What do you propose to do about this, besides blaming Bolsonaro - btw the criminals already all have guns, it's only the lawful citizens who have a hard time getting them. There's a reason everyone in brazil has to hide behind electric fences, security systems, etc.

Re: A Prison Lifer Comes Home

#30

Post by curiouswanderer » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 6:30 PM UTC

superflit wrote: post #26

I think they should do as the laws in Brazil. In Brazil, It is not allowed to give sentences for more than 30 years, and if the prisoner has good behavior, he is out in 1/6 of his sentence. And still, if he is not caught in 24h, was his first murder and has a job he may wait for the final judgment outside prison (after all appeals). Brazil is big, multi-diverse and is very nice. The Brazilian penal code is the most h…

The law is too lax. I also want to kill someone and then my sentence reduced to 1/6. In fact, I'd like to rob all brazilians from their taxpayer money through my corrupt construction company and then go to "home prison" at my 32 million square feet mansion without giving a single dime back. That's what I call a good application of the law! All hail the "great success" that it is.