Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.? • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#51

Post by ComputerGuru » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 3:28 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #41

from whatsapps official homepage, respectively ( https://faq.whatsapp.com/en/android/28030015 , https://faq.whatsapp.com/en/general/26000050 ) >WhatsApp has no ability to see the content of messages or listen to calls on WhatsApp. That’s because the encryption and decryption of messages sent on WhatsApp occurs entirely on your device. Before a message ever leaves your device, it's secured with a cryptographic lock, a…

I’m much more interested in the wording of “in the ordinary course,” which I don’t think is just a quirk of the language and I believe it is an indication that certain differing measures can take place after being compelled to provide information.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#52

Post by cameronbrown » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 3:28 PM UTC

hdfbdtbcdg wrote: post #42

rvz wrote: post #27

This is essentially a worrying prospect if these developments are actually implemented or advance further. The users trust in the social media service is breached if a backdoor where to be placed in their products (It also defeats the purpose of the end-to-end encryption argument). If you reside in the UK and especially in London, things have just become 500% more Orwellian. >Priti Patel, the U.K.’s home secretary, h…

Can't you buy new oyster cards with cash?

I believe so. I know there's definitely a way to get transport with cash. It's just a cost saving measure to only take contactless.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#53

Post by zzzcpan » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 3:29 PM UTC

nextos wrote: post #26

Gys wrote: post #17

> Social media platforms based in the U.S. including Facebook and WhatsApp will be forced to share users’ encrypted messages with British police under a new treaty between the two countries, according to a person familiar with the matter. This sounds as if the platforms are already sharing with the US authorities. So this being about them sharing it now with UK authorities.

I wonder what happens with Signal as it's US-based.

Signal may or may not be ok at the moment, but not in a couple of years (it has all the power to silently push an update with a backdoor). Among all the popular messaging apps only Telegram is in a position to not cooperate with five eyes.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#54

Post by cheschire » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 3:29 PM UTC

hos234 wrote: post #39

nextos wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what happens with Signal as it's US-based.

Nothing. Whoever is interested, has to get hold of the phones to access the messages.

Historical messages, yes. However an app maker can be coerced into adding a hidden user that can participate in chats and receive all future messages decrypted. It doesn't require any special crypto hacks for that to work.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#55

Post by akaryocyte » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 3:29 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #41

from whatsapps official homepage, respectively ( https://faq.whatsapp.com/en/android/28030015 , https://faq.whatsapp.com/en/general/26000050 ) >WhatsApp has no ability to see the content of messages or listen to calls on WhatsApp. That’s because the encryption and decryption of messages sent on WhatsApp occurs entirely on your device. Before a message ever leaves your device, it's secured with a cryptographic lock, a…

The phrase "In the ordinary course of providing our service" seems to imply that in some circumstances they do/can store messages?

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#56

Post by packet_nerd » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 3:30 PM UTC

kd3 wrote: post #22

blocked_again wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

End to end encryption does not exist.

Please elaborate?

Not the parent, but true in a sense. Communication is the act of conveying information from one person's consciousness to another. In the usual encrypted chat scenario, that path is unencrypted at two points (plaintext input, and plaintext output at the far end).

It is entirely possible though to have a true end-to-end encrypted channel if both parties are able to do the encryption in their heads without the plain text message ever being visible. A trivial practical example would be a single bit message with a single bit one time pad (agree ahead of time that if I say yes on the phone, it means no and vice versa).

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#57

Post by isostatic » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

rvz wrote: post #27

This is essentially a worrying prospect if these developments are actually implemented or advance further. The users trust in the social media service is breached if a backdoor where to be placed in their products (It also defeats the purpose of the end-to-end encryption argument). If you reside in the UK and especially in London, things have just become 500% more Orwellian. >Priti Patel, the U.K.’s home secretary, h…

Oyster cards can be shared and bought anomalously, and topped up with cash anonymously

You can also buy cash tickets like a travel card

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#58

Post by daveFNbuck » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

nicky0 wrote: post #11

If WhatsApp is end to end encrypted, how can they share the messages?

WhatsApp controls both ends.

Also, the article is unclear about whether the messages have to be decrypted before being shared, so they may just have to share the encrypted message.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#59

Post by poooogles » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

rvz wrote: post #27

This is essentially a worrying prospect if these developments are actually implemented or advance further. The users trust in the social media service is breached if a backdoor where to be placed in their products (It also defeats the purpose of the end-to-end encryption argument). If you reside in the UK and especially in London, things have just become 500% more Orwellian. >Priti Patel, the U.K.’s home secretary, h…

>In London alone, it is not possible to pay for public transport with cash and a card is required. Their reasons for doing this because it "benefits criminals" is echoing the "ban encryption" nonsense.

Not strictly true. You can buy an oyster card with cash, you can load it with cash and use that. After a weeks worth of journeys you can return it and get your £5 deposit back and buy another one.

Not exactly perfect but it's essentially the same as having a burner phone.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#60

Post by londons_explore » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 3:32 PM UTC

brenden2 wrote: post #43

If the source code isn't available for audit by 3rd parties (or yourself), and you can't build it from source, then it was never really "secure" anyway. What lawmakers do or don't say is just noise. Platforms that rely on trust (in this case, trusting that FB isn't doing bad things) provide very weak guarantees about privacy/security. They could easily include a keylogger in WhatsApp and bypass the e2e encryption, fo…

The Whatsapp binary is sufficiently transparent to enable someone determined to write their own client. Thats enough info for an expert to verify their "messages are end to end encrypted and we don't know the key" claim.

The fly in the ointment is the client might have additional functionality to leak the e2e encryption key. That is far harder to find, but if it's use were widespread, it would be found by researchers.

The whole point is moot though - whatsapp is designed to (by default) upload cleartext chat logs to google/apple servers. Since all chats have 2+ recipients, the conversation is only safe from snooping if nobody in the chat has backup enabled, which is unlikely.