Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#291

Post by aortega » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 11:18 AM UTC

darkerside wrote: post #143

bonniemuffin wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to push back on your assertion that vulnerability is inherently equivalent to weakness. Our society currently says it is, but I could equally imagine a future in which being vulnerable and honest about your feelings is seen as a feat of strength and courage -- because it DOES take a lot of courage, and even confidence, to be open and honest about your feelings.

Sure, it demonstrates a kind of strength and confidence to be open about your weakness. But that's literally what a vulnerability is: a weakness.

> But that's literally what a vulnerability is: a weakness.

There is a concerted effort at social engineering so powerful that now the very word meanings are challenged. Vulnerability is always, unequivocally a weakness. It's the very definition of the word.

Redefining vulnerability as strength is exactly 1984's Doublespeak.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#292

Post by macspoofing » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 11:19 AM UTC

It's a meme right now that men, as a group, need to be more in touch with their emotions or should express their emotions better, or some variation of the fact. Basically the comparison is drawn to women with the subtext that women are doing it right and men should follow. Has anyone actually asked if that is in fact true? For example, the "strong silent type" (i.e. stoicism) is a an archetype across cultures and maybe for some (or most) men that is the better path forward for their mental well-being.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#293

Post by macspoofing » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 11:23 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #42

sabarn01 wrote: post #19

Whats wrong with stoicism. Feelings are fleeting in general didn't lead me to positive places. I think we should put a high value on people that can handle their own problems.

I've participated in some of this work and agree that having feeling-sharing be the top line item is misleading. Feelings are involved, but the core of it is to face what one has been avoiding, in order to become stronger and grow. There's plenty of room for stoicism in that. The way to overcome pain is to acknowledge and include it instead of denying it. The difference is huge, and most of us need help to get there—…

>The way to overcome pain is to acknowledge and include it instead of denying it.

Publicly? It's one thing to be denial, it's another to acknowledge it to yourself but still elect not to engage in a public display of this. The strongest men I've ever met were not in denial of their emotional state but didn't need to engage in public displays like those listed in the article.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#294

Post by Strom » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 11:26 AM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #209

xythrowaway wrote: post #43

How are we, men, supposed to take these articles seriously when we have so many examples of how bad it is to share our feelings? Look at the character assassination of Stallman last week. He shared his feelings with some women, and look at what happened to him. If he had not communicated his desire to date some of these women, and not communicated his feelings about the confusing ethics (in his mind) surrounding sexu…

I think some of the articles recommend you find some good guys to talk to in a private setting, rather than posting things on your doorplate at a university, for instance. Talk with some good guy friends first if you think having sex with 14-year-olds is ok, and perhaps they'll give you some feedback so you don't have to hash it out on the public stage.

Having sex with a 14 year old person is completely ok in a lot of countries, including places like Germany & Italy [1], with no pedophilia panic going on.

--

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#295

Post by ryanwaggoner » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 11:34 AM UTC

atoav wrote: post #281

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer to use the term "open" instead of vulnerable, to avoid exactly the situation you're pointing out. And you can be open without being weak or vulnerable if you have self-confidence. Not faked confidence, but the genuine kind that comes from dealing with your shit instead of repressing it and putting on a mask of fake confidence, strength, stoicism, invulnerability, etc.

Yeah you can be open too and this means by definition you are confident about the topic at hand and that you trust the other person enough. But if all you ever do is only talk about topics that you can confidently speak about with out risking something, then you are missing out on something. And sure you can also go and deal with it on your own till you got the confidence to talk about it without exposing yourself, b…

It’s not confidence about the topics. It’s confidence about yourself.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#296

Post by Infinitesimus » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 11:37 AM UTC

friendlybus wrote: post #251

jimkleiber wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a little confused...what do you mean that the expression of sadness will ramp up?

It's an art thing. Hard to compress into a short comment. As the Trump capture on sadness fades there will be a natural reversal into an excess of the expression of sadness. We are seeing the start of it in films where there are women crying. Not that Trump controls that stuff, but rather he is tapping into a deeper principle. The cult like approach to certainty we see on the web will fade over time as well. Expressi…

To echo my sibling comment, I'd love to read a lengthier explanation of this idea. Perhaps a blog or some resources could be handy as well

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#297

Post by ryanwaggoner » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 11:56 AM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #293

dang wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've participated in some of this work and agree that having feeling-sharing be the top line item is misleading. Feelings are involved, but the core of it is to face what one has been avoiding, in order to become stronger and grow. There's plenty of room for stoicism in that. The way to overcome pain is to acknowledge and include it instead of denying it. The difference is huge, and most of us need help to get there—…

>The way to overcome pain is to acknowledge and include it instead of denying it. Publicly? It's one thing to be denial, it's another to acknowledge it to yourself but still elect not to engage in a public display of this. The strongest men I've ever met were not in denial of their emotional state but didn't need to engage in public displays like those listed in the article.

A small group of trusted men hardly counts as public.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#298

Post by cameronbrown » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 11:58 AM UTC

claudiawerner wrote: post #290

pdub123 wrote: post #279

If you think "The Patriarchy"^TM exists, you have a very simplistic, univariate understanding of reality. You're associating causality for whatever negative things happen to you in your life, not with your own set of circumstances, choices, or human agency, but rather with one single factor-- some ethereal 00.00001% group of conspiratorial, ostensibly straight white old men... with whatever happens to you in life. It…

This condescending comment ("whatever negative things happen to you", "more complicated than that, dear") ignores at decades of research in sociology, critical theory and political philosophy - which, at the very least, say that concerns about the effects of gender in the structure of society cannot be so easily dismissed. >but rather with one single factor-- some ethereal 00.00001% group of conspiratorial, ostensibl…

> concerns about the effects of gender in the structure of society cannot be so easily dismissed.

Why not? They've been entirely constant for the history of civilization.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#299

Post by phkahler » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 12:12 PM UTC

bmarquez wrote: post #3

I participated in men's work, not specifically the ManKind Project but a closely related organization. I personally found it helpful doing weekly check-ins and having people holding me accountable to my goals. Unfortunately, the stigma regarding men sharing feelings is prevalent in western society, and it's not only the men causing it. When I told several female friends about the work they did, their response was: "A…

There's a part in Brene Browns "Daring Greatly" where a guy says that his wife and daughter would rather he die on his horse than to fall off. Brown comes back with a very impractical response to the effect of "well then they have work to do too".

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#300

Post by dromen » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 12:13 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #285

dang wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Confidence and vulnerability aren't opposites. The confidence that comes from going through vulnerability and coming out stronger is worth more than the facade style of confidence, which covers unprocessed weakness.

Confidence and overt vulnerability are opposites. No one is going to be impressed if you burst into tears during a code review. They're going to be a lot more impressed if you bullshit your way through with positivity and can-do. This is irrespective of the quality of the code. This culture rewards overt displays of competitive individualism and punishes weakness irrespective of actual productivity, value, or objecti…

They're not! Confidence and unregulated overt vulnerability are conflicting (but not precisely opposite).

By acknowledging the possibility that you may have done something wrong, you make yourself vulnerable to judgment, and by doing so confidently you gain respect. Facing judgment is a sign of confidence and it requires making yourself vulnerable.

In a more subtle example, showing signs of vulnerability in personal relations is a way of letting others know you, and that takes courage. There'd be no point to having social interactions if you were invulnerable, any interaction would literally be inconsequential for you and thus unmotivated.

You "dress up" the vulnerability with a higher level strength (e.g. the capacity to listen to and analyze your own shortcomings), and then it's all good.

There's a difference between being vulnerable, and putting yourself in a situation that will hurt you. It's fine to show yourself vulnerable if you can do so in a way that incentives good behavior from your peers.