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Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

nytimes.com

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Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#251

Post by friendlybus »

jimkleiber wrote: post #219
friendlybus wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll have to keep running it over the next 4-8 years to filter out the short term cultural changes. The expression of sadness will likely ramp up from it's locked up baseline now to 2024.

I'm a little confused...what do you mean that the expression of sadness will ramp up?

It's an art thing. Hard to compress into a short comment. As the Trump capture on sadness fades there will be a natural reversal into an excess of the expression of sadness. We are seeing the start of it in films where there are women crying. Not that Trump controls that stuff, but rather he is tapping into a deeper principle.

The cult like approach to certainty we see on the web will fade over time as well. Expressions of uncertainty will become more acceptable.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#252

Post by mirimir »

dang wrote: post #239
mirimir wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, large-group awareness training. The rationale being that we're a lot alike, and can learn from each other. There's typically lots of sharing, interspersed with material from the presenter. And usually, the person who's sharing is the last one to get the learning. Hoffstadter's I Am a Strange Loop is mostly about the role that self-referential systems arguably play in consciousness. But it also argues that part…

Wow, you clearly have a wide range of experiences with these things, and I'm curious to hear what you could share. How would you compare what you personally got out of NWT vs. est/Landmark?

I did NWT and est at about the same time. It was a very stressful time. And I was very unstable. I'm bipolar, and I was teetering between mania and depression. And between anger and self-hate.

From NWT, I mainly got that I was chronically insecure and fearful. And that I covered it up with aggressive edginess. I still get like that sometimes, but I'm never as unconscious about it as I was pre-NWT.

It's hard to summarize what I got from est and Landmark so glibly. A key piece is that the voice in my head isn't me, but rather stuff generated from the machinery. And that listening to it just gets me more of what I often didn't like getting before. So I learned to thank myself for sharing, and then to get in touch with what really mattered to me. As they say, my principles and values. As opposed to the ideals and standards that I'd been programmed with.

I also got lots of training in how to get stuff done. Promises and requests. The importance of tracking progress and performance. The concept that being comes before, and is the key to, doing and having. The stages of projects, and especially the idea that the relationship between effort and results is hugely nonlinear.

Edit: Also, I did NWT for maybe 2-3 years. But I did Landmark actively for over 25 years.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#253

Post by dwrodri »

antepodius wrote: post #244
kungtotte wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developing mental health issues and unstable personal relationships because you're unable to access and share your emotions is also a weakness that derives from the emotional suppression that men are taught is a desired masculine trait. It doesn't have to be like this. Vulnerability doesn't have to be a weakness, showing your emotions can be a masculine trait. We're not defined by, nor locked into, our traditional cu…

Vulnerability is a weakness. It's what the word means. I'm fine with people being more open with their emotions, fine, but I'm not a huge fan of the idea of socially mandating that weakness itself is strength, which is just a lie (would you wish that someone you loved were more vulnerable than they are?) It's different to having a norm for admission of weakness being a marker of strength due to the courage required i…

Semantically, you're absolutely correct. I think it's just important to clarify that "vulnerability" in this context refers more to "emotional transparency". I think someone who is confident in themself and has a respectable amount of emotional intelligence could navigate a position where they are emotionally honest (i.e. "vulnerable") with others without necesarily exposing weaknesses that compromise them from the professional point of view.

While I originally saw this discussion chain as you playing devil's advocate, I realize now you've done a good job helping reframe the scenario in a much better light. For most people (including myself), we don't separate emotional honesty from vulnerability because emotionally we _are_ vulnerable. Working towards a sense of self that is comfortable with emotional reviews that are as intense as a code reviews is something worth striving for.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#254

Post by ekr »

tachyonbeam wrote: post #47
whatshisface wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the healthier people have by definition less emotional suffering, then of course they're going to complain less.

I second this. We all have unique brains, and it seems to me that some people are naturally less prone to anxiety than others. I know plenty of people who seem to have naturally low anxiety, and as far as I can tell, they never needed to have some profound realization to become like this, they were likely born this way, they have lucky genetics. Anxiety means your brain has more of a tendency to worry about potential…

I've studied the area of developmental psychology a lot, and all evidence points to neuroticism, anxiety being not genetic but a result of developmental trauma. Adverse childhood experiences, missatunemenmet with the primary caregiver leads to an area of the brain responsible with affect regulation not being developed properly. Infants learn to regulate affect from parents (the mother or the primary caregiver).

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#255

Post by indigochill »

thrower123 wrote: post #117
honkycat wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No man is an island. And it is hard to know if you ARE "handling your own problems" when you do not seek other people's input. "Handling your own problems" a lot of the time means "making other people responsible for my emotional well being." I do love stoicism though and I think meditation and stoicism are excellent paths to understanding yourself and managing your internal state.

Are you going to work? Are you reasonably content? Then you are handling your problems. Some people really seem to want men to be very emotional and assume something is wrong if they don't appear to be showing strong emotions. Often, they're just fine, and there's no there there. If you keep picking at them, you'll probably generate some emotions, however.

I'm not sure the point is expression per se, or always being emotional, but rather being okay with introspecting on emotions when they do come up and more to the point, what's causing them.

I'd compare it to a tooth abscess. It's not like it's so painful you need to scream. It's just kind of there, occasionally causing problems. But if it goes untreated long enough, the bacteria in it can kill you. There are some parallels there with loneliness, which a lot of men suffer from.

So I'd say this is more the realization that "Oh, this pain is because of this source. I'm gonna go deal with that source." The process of dealing might involve making your emotions known (such as when breaking up).

Of course, if you're legitimately not in any kind of pain, then great. But most people are, in one form or another.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#256

Post by PavlovsCat »

seph-reed wrote: post #243
FussyZeus wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is reality that harsh? Certainly there are immutable truths to be found, and of those, a certain subset aren't pleasant. But by and large in my experience, reality is largely neutral. What's often much harsher than any reality are the status quos of societal systems, and though they may be difficult to mutate, they are mutable. As much as I detest things like the Men's Rights movement and MGTOW and other such groups,…

> Is reality that harsh? This is not a story of how utopias are made. Write that story in your head, then compare and contrast. Maybe read up on 20th century torture. I lived the good life for a while, then I got pushed to the fringe, and now I'm somewhere in between. The worst I saw was nothing compared to the worst there has been, but it was bad enough to make one thing very, very clear: happiness stands on the bac…

Those are things humans do to other humans, it's not the emptyness of space, the harsh reality of the universe, doing that to us. To "stand guard" at the edge of humanity as if to ward of some outside intrusion of evil just doesn't make sense. There is still plenty of suffering to be had even if all humans were excellent to each other, but that would take so much bite out of it.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#257

Post by seph-reed »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #256
seph-reed wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is reality that harsh? This is not a story of how utopias are made. Write that story in your head, then compare and contrast. Maybe read up on 20th century torture. I lived the good life for a while, then I got pushed to the fringe, and now I'm somewhere in between. The worst I saw was nothing compared to the worst there has been, but it was bad enough to make one thing very, very clear: happiness stands on the bac…

Those are things humans do to other humans, it's not the emptyness of space, the harsh reality of the universe, doing that to us. To "stand guard" at the edge of humanity as if to ward of some outside intrusion of evil just doesn't make sense. There is still plenty of suffering to be had even if all humans were excellent to each other, but that would take so much bite out of it.

The outside of the bubble isn't space.

It sounds like you're on the tail end of existentialism, which is good. It does keep going for a while passed that.

Seems like you may be heading towards Absurdism. If so, I recommend Optimistic Nihilism instead. It's much less of a kick in the shins to the envious tortured souls you never notice watching you.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#258

Post by jamesrcole »

bonniemuffin wrote: post #135
ericmcer wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our society will always value men who are confident, this is so much deeper to me than being scared to share your feelings because “it’s gay”. Women are attracted to confidence, employers reward confidence, hiring managers are impressed by confidence. Vulnerability and weakness are just not rewarded for men or women, but especially for men.

I want to push back on your assertion that vulnerability is inherently equivalent to weakness. Our society currently says it is, but I could equally imagine a future in which being vulnerable and honest about your feelings is seen as a feat of strength and courage -- because it DOES take a lot of courage, and even confidence, to be open and honest about your feelings.

> I want to push back on your assertion that vulnerability is inherently equivalent to weakness.

They didn't assert that, though. They said that confidence is rewarded while vulnerability and weakness aren't. If anything, their description implies a distinction between vulnerability and weakness.

I took their statement to be primarily about perceptions. That anything people perceive as a lack confidence is penalised.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#259

Post by PavlovsCat »

seph-reed wrote: post #257
PavlovsCat wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are things humans do to other humans, it's not the emptyness of space, the harsh reality of the universe, doing that to us. To "stand guard" at the edge of humanity as if to ward of some outside intrusion of evil just doesn't make sense. There is still plenty of suffering to be had even if all humans were excellent to each other, but that would take so much bite out of it.

The outside of the bubble isn't space. It sounds like you're on the tail end of existentialism, which is good. It does keep going for a while passed that. Seems like you may be heading towards Absurdism. If so, I recommend Optimistic Nihilism instead. It's much less of a kick in the shins to the envious tortured souls you never notice watching you.

The person you responded to said they think reality isn't harsh, humans are, and you replied with a bunch of harsh things humans do as if that contradicted their comment, which it doesn't. Yet you're contradicting yourself:

> In the moment it sucks, but over time I look back and see a beautiful existence.

vs.

> Imagine looking an abused child in the eyes and saying "is reality that harsh?"

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#260

Post by anon9001 »

mirimir wrote: post #252
dang wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you clearly have a wide range of experiences with these things, and I'm curious to hear what you could share. How would you compare what you personally got out of NWT vs. est/Landmark?

I did NWT and est at about the same time. It was a very stressful time. And I was very unstable. I'm bipolar, and I was teetering between mania and depression. And between anger and self-hate. From NWT, I mainly got that I was chronically insecure and fearful. And that I covered it up with aggressive edginess. I still get like that sometimes, but I'm never as unconscious about it as I was pre-NWT. It's hard to summar…

I would love to read everything you would write about this. I'm sure most people here would. I can't believe you've been doing a whole genre of activity for over 25 years that I just learned exists today!
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