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Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

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Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#291
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They couldn't move the manual trim wheel because the plane had been allowed to overspeed. It was climbing at Vmo; they could have pulled back the power to not let the plane overspeed, rather than exceeding Vmo. Hopefully at Vmo they could move the trim wheel, but if not, they could wait until they had a few thousand feet more height, aerodynamically unloaded and trimmed. > So they reenabled the electric trim, at whic…

That's what you would do, you weren't there though, they were. Confronting a system whose implementation details were not well known, already two potential memory item checklists into the flight to the ground. It's easy now to point the finger and say "Airmanship" when you know the innards of the damn thing. They had one airworthyness directive, and maybe a grand total of five paragraphs in the entire manual, plus a…

OK, so you're here to ad hom and mock (in your other post) and then not actually speak to the question asked here (when your plane is climbing, why would you re-enable electric trim, and then not even bother to significantly retrim the plane?)

This is not the behavior I expect from someone whom I'll voluntarily talk to.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#292
post #281
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for clarity, I have no qualms about stretching the plane. It's building in a new control system and not telling the pilots about it that seems crazy to me. Thanks so much for your thoughts!

Yup, I agree completely. There's some people who say that because the longer 737 is less stable in pitch it should have never been built, and I think that's over the top. Thank you for the discussion and questions!

> There's some people who say that because the longer 737 is less stable in pitch it should have never been built, and I think that's over the top.

I know that aerodynamic instability requiring continuous correction by fly-by-wire systems has become common on fighter jets because it's necessary to achieve some of the maneuvering characteristics necessary to make them competitive. These are, of course very different priorities from commercial passenger aircraft.

Has a jetliner been certified before the 737 MAX that is aerodynamically unstable in any of the tests that it's required to pass without control inputs made by the computer without direct input from the pilot, or in contravention of the pilot's input? I know Airbus is fond of its "do what I mean" system, but that in some circumstances, Airbus flight control systems revert to essentially emulating an analog airplane. Would their flight characteristics pass certification in that mode?

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A principle in software is to never write the most complicated code you possibly can, because maintenance is harder than writing, and if you could only just barely write it in the first place, you won't be able to maintain it. The principle for pilots is similar. As to skills assessments, you're right, it's difficult. But you can use some general proxies. Certification pilots should be drawn from a standard pool, not…

I think the point that I was trying to make is that a test pilot probably has attributes / skills which make them well qualified as test pilots but perhaps wouldn't make them particularly good line pilots and vice versa. An ideal test pilots should excel in stick and rudder skills and have the ability to work around mechanical / system problems. For a line pilot attributes like organisational skills and planning, int…

Good points, though I'd argue that for a certification flight, you still want to both emphasize conventional operational training and activities and a minimum set of qualifications for those.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#294
post #292
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, I agree completely. There's some people who say that because the longer 737 is less stable in pitch it should have never been built, and I think that's over the top. Thank you for the discussion and questions!

> There's some people who say that because the longer 737 is less stable in pitch it should have never been built, and I think that's over the top. I know that aerodynamic instability requiring continuous correction by fly-by-wire systems has become common on fighter jets because it's necessary to achieve some of the maneuvering characteristics necessary to make them competitive. These are, of course very different p…

Concorde's Safety Flight System is in some ways similar to MCAS, in that it'll nudge elevons itself.

I don't know if Airbus would meet certification requirements in direct control law. I suspect not. Definitely not in mechanical control law.

Just like more conventional jetliners wouldn't meet certification guidelines without all of their control rigging, counterweights, and trim systems. It's just now tempting to make adjustments to those systems with software instead of fiddling with everything else.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#295
post #292
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, I agree completely. There's some people who say that because the longer 737 is less stable in pitch it should have never been built, and I think that's over the top. Thank you for the discussion and questions!

> There's some people who say that because the longer 737 is less stable in pitch it should have never been built, and I think that's over the top. I know that aerodynamic instability requiring continuous correction by fly-by-wire systems has become common on fighter jets because it's necessary to achieve some of the maneuvering characteristics necessary to make them competitive. These are, of course very different p…

I thought of a much better answer to your question:

Many airplanes require functional (electronic) yaw damping to be safe in various flight conditions, because of dutch roll. There are also e.g. electronic control feel systems in some aircraft that must be operational to exceed certain speeds and/or altitudes and not be excessively vulnerable to PIO, etc.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#296
post #190
post #62

This seems like a good thing, they should be testing with people who don’t know the answers. Though I can’t help but wonder if this is a very subtle re-framing of the Max accidents to shift blame back towards pilots. This approach of a regulatory agency recommending “average pilot” testing makes both the agency and Boeing look good, and tends to downplay the fact that Boeing intentionally avoided training the pilots,…

> and that the system was only recoverable if you had some extremely specific knowledge. This isn't true. If you follow the runaway trim procedure, you recover. Pilots in the US are required to demonstrate the runaway trim procedure as part of a type rating checkride. Aggravating factors are, IMO: 1) Even well-trained aircrews getting a runaway trim condition on takeoff are not guaranteed to show the same performance…

> If you follow the runaway trim procedure, you recover.

In the Ethiopian crash the crew followed the runaway trim check list but didn't recover. The issue seems have been that the aircraft was going to fast so they couldn't turn the manual trim adjuster. But that isn't mentioned on the runaway checklist (http://www.b737.org.uk/runawaystab.htm)

OK a different crew might have figured that and slowed down but not crashing should not be that tricky really.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#297
post #296
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and that the system was only recoverable if you had some extremely specific knowledge. This isn't true. If you follow the runaway trim procedure, you recover. Pilots in the US are required to demonstrate the runaway trim procedure as part of a type rating checkride. Aggravating factors are, IMO: 1) Even well-trained aircrews getting a runaway trim condition on takeoff are not guaranteed to show the same performance…

> If you follow the runaway trim procedure, you recover. In the Ethiopian crash the crew followed the runaway trim check list but didn't recover. The issue seems have been that the aircraft was going to fast so they couldn't turn the manual trim adjuster. But that isn't mentioned on the runaway checklist ( http://www.b737.org.uk/runawaystab.htm ) OK a different crew might have figured that and slowed down but not cra…

As already discussed, the runaway trim procedure got them to a positive rate climb.

Then they did A) re-enabled electric trim (and MCAS) B) while still low, C) touched the trim button for a second, and didn't adjust anywhere close to proper trim, and D) left electric trim/MCAS on.

Not to mention, from your source, the FCTM says:

> Excessive airloads on the stabilizer may require effort by both pilots to correct the mis-trim. In extreme cases it may be necessary to aerodynamically relieve the airloads to allow manual trimming. Accelerate or decelerate towards the in-trim speed while attempting to trim manually.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#298
post #225
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was improper about the execution of runaway trim by either LNI610 or ET302? Those two cases are different. LNI043 and LNI610 are also different but the similarity is 4 of 5 pilots didn't recognize it as runaway trim. And does it? Boeing says it does, but saying things doesn't make it true. It's much more aggressive than the kind of runaway trim pilots are trained for. So again, what was improper? Especially ET30…

ET302 ultimately turned the electric trim back on which was their death knell, in violation of procedures. A contributing factor to ET302 is that mechanical trim wheel rotation can be very difficult in some flight regimes. A further contributing factor is ET302 left an unreasonable amount of power in and got to an overspeed situation, which makes rotating the trim wheel yet more difficult. Being trimmed a bit nose do…

Now you're starting to make me angry.

>ET302 ultimately turned the electric trim back on which was their death knell, in violation of procedures.

No it wasn't, they'd run out of checklist, and were deep in "oh shit" territory.

>A contributing factor to ET302 is that mechanical trim wheel rotation can be very difficult in some flight regimes.

>A further contributing factor is ET302 left an unreasonable amount of power in and got to an overspeed situation, which makes rotating the trim wheel yet more difficult. Being trimmed a bit nose down should not kill you. It should be the kind of thing you experience in training.

It was absolutely not unreasonable given the environment and stage of the flight (initial climbout) and the fact that pulling power would have led to nose drop (the opposite of what the current desired tendency of the plane was). Also, the plane was suffering by definition airspeed unreliable which dictates advancing throttles to the appropriate throttle position for the desired state of flight and leaving them there.

And what training? Oh! You mean that training they should have had because MCAS was a two sensor system, and therefore required level D simulator time that never happened because the manufacturer decided to cut corners to make more sales of their "best selling plane of all time"? That training?

https://youtu.be/QytfYyHmxtc

Or the one hour glorified PowerPoint training that never mentioned a single detail of a flight control computer algorithm, or the disabling of a trim override switch built into the yoke, or the changing of the functionality of the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches on the console to degrade the granularity of control with regards to which systems were electrically isolated from the trim motors because a hidden AoA dependent control routine had to be allowed to run uninterrupted because to do so would jeopardize their competitive advantage/ability to generate shareholder value by disqualifying their airframe outright or severely delaying its delivery because regulators started asking really inconvenient questions? That training?

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing...

The training unacceptable because Boeing would owe USD 1,000,000 per airframe to one of their largest customers if they implemented their safety system correctly in accordance to engineering best practices? That training?

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/the...

The training that would have to happen anyway after their hacked together design had already killed 400 people, increasing scrutiny, causing them to finally do analysis they should have done in the first place, but didn't, because they were too busy trying to financially engineer the company after absorbing the management that drove McDonnell Douglas into the ground?

That training?

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/newly...

https://www.mymoneyblog.com/boeing-engineer-dream-job-nightm...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-05-09/former-bo...

I get it. You sound like a knowledgeable dude, but you also sound like someone who has absolutely not sat front and center, day in, and day out, as companies try to go through the wildest mental gymnastics to avoid being held responsible for complying with regulations that have a damn good reason for being there.

You know what? Those pilots might have made mistakes. But the entire job of an Engineering firm is to ensure that the opportunity for those mistakes to occur are as rare and infrequent as practicable, with a dash of practicality thrown in; at least enough to keep the bean counters and management from sweating bullets. That means clearly communicating details of safety critical systems, being willing to admit a system is safety critical, and putting your bloody books behind in priority to getting the job done right as much as is reasonably necessary.

I'm a hobbyist. I do Quality Assurance as my day job. I could see plain as day the issues and risks they would be taking. I sat down and calculated the bloody forces that would have to be applied to the screw jack to actuate against the airstream at those velocities, and the torque numbers I got without even factoring in the extra pressure from the elevators was well into the output range of an automotive engine. I could also tell, just from the press releases over the development years the type of culture they had slipped into. That complacency by management kills, and did kill people.

Those pilots were the very last thing between those people and that crater, and did everything to the letter to the moment they had to improvise, and even then, they went into it insufficiently informed on the particulars of their aircraft.

I've bounced the details of this entire event passed maintenance people, passed crash investigators, passed anyone who'll care to listen. Boeing did things that are pretty much universally amongst them considered "things no one in their right mind should do."

If you want to buy in to "oh, they just sucked as pilots", fine. I'll give you Lion Air, but Ethiopian Airlines has a stellar safety record, and can fly in American airspace. So they obviously can't be that bad.

Oh, almost forgot!

>Bullshit. A stuck stabilizer trim switch will run away much faster than MCAS, and this is the primary thing they're trained for. The problem with MCAS is that it's an insidious, intermittent runaway-- an unlikely failure mode for a switch.

I call Bullshit right back, sir, seeing as, just as you mentioned, MCAS manifests differently from the classical stab trim runaway. Something which could be cause for pause for someone expecting a continuous runaway.

Just because they weren't you now does not mean primary fault can or should be attributed to them.

They walked onto that plane, cocksure, and as full of enthusiasm as you would have on any day. Up until the point Boeing's reckless design decisions came to light, no one had a clue just how different the MAX was from the 737's every airline pilot is familiar with.

You want to trade places with them? Ask God. He may oblige. Then mayhaps 150 or so may still be alive. That doesn't change the fact Boeing created an unsafe plane, hid the fact/didn't analyze hard enough to determine that fact at the pressuring of management, and to add insult to injury, tried to firmly pin the blame on the pilots, your comrades. It isn't even the first time they've done it if you recall the nastiness of the rudder reversals in the 90's, and some of their difficulties getting the 727 certified in Europe back in the 60's.

I'm frankly shocked you're so willing to jump to Boeing's defense in light of the mountain of evidence that has hitherto come to light, considering it's you they want to pin the blame on to avoid taking responsibility for what they decided to do.

Good day, sir. I only hope people take the time to do their own research.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#299
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ET302 ultimately turned the electric trim back on which was their death knell, in violation of procedures. A contributing factor to ET302 is that mechanical trim wheel rotation can be very difficult in some flight regimes. A further contributing factor is ET302 left an unreasonable amount of power in and got to an overspeed situation, which makes rotating the trim wheel yet more difficult. Being trimmed a bit nose do…

Now you're starting to make me angry. >ET302 ultimately turned the electric trim back on which was their death knell, in violation of procedures. No it wasn't, they'd run out of checklist, and were deep in "oh shit" territory. >A contributing factor to ET302 is that mechanical trim wheel rotation can be very difficult in some flight regimes. >A further contributing factor is ET302 left an unreasonable amount of power…

> Now you're starting to make me angry.

After you've spouted invective and abuse at me? I see you've edited it out since.

> > ET302 ultimately turned the electric trim back on which was their death knell, in violation of procedures.

> No it wasn't

Wrong. Boeing OMB, dated November 6, 2018:

"In the event an uncommanded nose down stabilizer trim is experienced... do the Runway Stabilizer NNC ensuring that the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are set to CUTOUT and stay in the CUTOUT position for the remainder of the flight."

Followed by an airworthiness directive requiring the immediate revision of flight manuals and familiarity of pilots with this OMB.

ET302 was 10 March 2019.

It goes on to state that you should neutralize trim forces before going to STAB TRIM CUTOUT.

"Electric stabilizer trim can be used to neutralize control column pitch forces before moving the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches to CUTOUT."

I told you before that MCAS was faulty. It's the most important link in the failure chain, but it sure is unwise to advocate ignoring the rest of the links.

As I said to you elsewhere: "The crews that crashed did not do great. But if a system is regularly putting crews to the test in a way that requires high levels of personal performance to survive, that's a bigger problem." This summarizes my thoughts on this topic. MCAS should get fixed; Boeing should be found liable for the accidents; Pilots should be better informed about the systems on their aircraft... AND we've proven that pilots that don't get recurrent training and evaluation on stab trim issues do badly with them.

> I sat down and calculated the bloody forces that would have to be applied to the screw jack to actuate against the airstream at those velocities, and the torque numbers I got without even factoring in the extra pressure from the elevators was well into the output range of an automotive engine.

OK, and humans can exert torques on trim wheels with a handle "well into the output range" of an automotive engine, too, so you've established nothing.

You've still declined to answer my simple question in the other posts, too-- which I suspect is because you don't have an answer.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#300
post #277
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3. Who had a simulator that simulated MCAS upset? 4. Which is not at all what happens with runaway trim. Also runaway trim that pilots are trained on is a consistent and relatively slow trim. The MCAS upset form is intermittant, and can be but isn't always, aggressive and comes with a ton of other data in the form of various instrumentation disagree warnings and possibly stick shaker going off which NEVER happens in…

> Boeing's design and US-centric expectation of pilots didn't prevent US Air 427 from crashing. Literally everyone in the world expects pilots won't pull back on the yoke at stall. Yet these U.S. pilots did that. The reason that '427 pilots aren't blamed is that it's unclear that with perfect inputs that the plane was recoverable. We also excuse them a bit because the situation became unrecoverable in a matter of sec…

It's long since been demonstrated the airplane was recoverable. With perfect information. Lacking stall, full opposite aileron successfully counteracts rudder.
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