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Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

nytimes.com

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Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#41

Post by whatshisface »

nostromo wrote: post #28
sabarn01 wrote: post #19

Whats wrong with stoicism. Feelings are fleeting in general didn't lead me to positive places. I think we should put a high value on people that can handle their own problems.

I agree. I find that the healthiest people in my life don't seem to be the types prone to endless rumination. I think this is where meditation (and stoicism) deviates from some types of psychotherapy and most support groups. Meditation teaches you to look at feelings dispassionately, which helps you lessen their power. This is very different than treating each emotion as if it is "correct" and in need of resolution v…

If the healthier people have by definition less emotional suffering, then of course they're going to complain less.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#42

Post by dang »

sabarn01 wrote: post #19

Whats wrong with stoicism. Feelings are fleeting in general didn't lead me to positive places. I think we should put a high value on people that can handle their own problems.

I've participated in some of this work and agree that having feeling-sharing be the top line item is misleading. Feelings are involved, but the core of it is to face what one has been avoiding, in order to become stronger and grow. There's plenty of room for stoicism in that.

The way to overcome pain is to acknowledge and include it instead of denying it. The difference is huge, and most of us need help to get there—personally contactful help, not idea help. I found it pretty liberating to be able to get such help from other men, in a group no less. The point is not to become a gushy feeling-sharer or a sensitive new-age male. It is to no longer be governed by unconscious feelings and the wounds of early experience.

The organizations that practice this work are not super clear about that distinction, which I suspect limits their appeal to many men. I went because of a friend I respect, who in turn went because of a friend he respects. Had either of us only read an article like this, I doubt we'd have been interested. Its subtle ironizing, which approaches belittling ("chastened menfolk", "There, there"), would have turned me off. The photos would have turned me off too, and I've sat in a lot of workshops (though usually with few men and many women).

Edit: an interesting thing to me was the gap between practice and theory. Even though there were parts of the theory behind that work which I didn't necessarily find appealing, I met quite a few men there who struck me as having a kind of integrated masculinity (maybe not the best phrase, but it's hard to find words for these qualities). They seemed strong and open at the same time. I found myself admiring them and wanting to be more like that myself. None of this had much to do with expressing feelings or being emotional; I would use the word presence instead. They maybe even seemed a bit less emotional than most men I meet—more able to take in what is happening without being reactive.

So I would say the theory doesn't work as well as the practice. You barely ever get that! usually it's the other way around.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#43

Post by xythrowaway »

How are we, men, supposed to take these articles seriously when we have so many examples of how bad it is to share our feelings?

Look at the character assassination of Stallman last week. He shared his feelings with some women, and look at what happened to him. If he had not communicated his desire to date some of these women, and not communicated his feelings about the confusing ethics (in his mind) surrounding sexual norms, he'd still be the leader of the FSF.

Instead, he (stupidly) did share how he was feeling about something, and did it publically, and look at what happened to him.

I'm sure every single man posting on this website has an example of a time when they shared how they were feeling, or were vulnerable, to some women, and had it blow up in their face. I have.

These articles, written by women, telling men to be more self destructive are ridiculous, and certainly feel like they have an agenda.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#45

Post by zozbot234 »

nostromo wrote: post #28
sabarn01 wrote: post #19

Whats wrong with stoicism. Feelings are fleeting in general didn't lead me to positive places. I think we should put a high value on people that can handle their own problems.

I agree. I find that the healthiest people in my life don't seem to be the types prone to endless rumination. I think this is where meditation (and stoicism) deviates from some types of psychotherapy and most support groups. Meditation teaches you to look at feelings dispassionately, which helps you lessen their power. This is very different than treating each emotion as if it is "correct" and in need of resolution v…

I thought that the way "introspection" is supposed to work was as a way of asking oneself: "wait, why am I feeling this emotion in the first place? Where does it bottom out, so to say?" Because that in turn tells you what strings to pull at in order to "resolve" the emotion in a comprehensive way. While this cannot be done without regarding the emotion as at least putatively "correct", I'd say that it's far from incompatible with a Stoicism-inspired approach, properly understood.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#46

Post by alistairSH »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #9
whalesalad wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paywall is not what irks me. It's all the crap they post that either invokes super inflammatory commentary here on HN (like, men being emotional, men being anxious, men being xyz) or the really NERF-level stuff that lacks any substance and really just makes you think of Captain Obvious™

NERF-level?

Soft and harmless, like Nerf balls and projectiles.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#47

Post by tachyonbeam »

whatshisface wrote: post #41
nostromo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I find that the healthiest people in my life don't seem to be the types prone to endless rumination. I think this is where meditation (and stoicism) deviates from some types of psychotherapy and most support groups. Meditation teaches you to look at feelings dispassionately, which helps you lessen their power. This is very different than treating each emotion as if it is "correct" and in need of resolution v…

If the healthier people have by definition less emotional suffering, then of course they're going to complain less.

I second this. We all have unique brains, and it seems to me that some people are naturally less prone to anxiety than others. I know plenty of people who seem to have naturally low anxiety, and as far as I can tell, they never needed to have some profound realization to become like this, they were likely born this way, they have lucky genetics.

Anxiety means your brain has more of a tendency to worry about potential threats. Possibly because your amygdala are more easily activated. It may just be that, back when we lived in the savannah, being easily aroused by potential threats, and being overly careful, was in many ways beneficial for survival. However, we live in a time of relative safety, and it seems that being someone who worries a lot about potential threats is not generally a useful trait.

I'm not saying that there's nothing you can do to manage anxiety, that is obviously false, but I'm saying there's a strong genetic component, and that judging people who appear more anxious and telling them just suck it up shows a fundamental lack of self-awareness and understanding of how the human brain works.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#48

Post by pubby »

Female sexual attraction favors secure men who don't talk feelings. This results in men feeling unable to express their emotions around their significant other.

On the other side, male sexuality selects based on looks more than anything.

Feminism calls the latter shallow and toxic, but truthfully both should have that label. Neither is serving society or evolution well anymore. But what can we do? Sexual attraction is an innate, unchanging aspect of what it means to be man and woman. It isn't going to be removed from our genes anytime soon.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#49

Post by lanstin »

tachyonbeam wrote: post #47
whatshisface wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the healthier people have by definition less emotional suffering, then of course they're going to complain less.

I second this. We all have unique brains, and it seems to me that some people are naturally less prone to anxiety than others. I know plenty of people who seem to have naturally low anxiety, and as far as I can tell, they never needed to have some profound realization to become like this, they were likely born this way, they have lucky genetics. Anxiety means your brain has more of a tendency to worry about potential…

I agree: one's goal has to be to create a fulfilling life (whatever that means to one) with the nervous system you actually have. Wishing things away rarely works with mental/emotional realities. There's many ways to manage the reality of your specific self; e.g., I'm pretty anxious, so I start every day I can with a nice relaxing bath, during which I am free of anxiety. However, I don't try to make myself be free of anxiety when I have to speak up in some tense situation; then I use mindfulness techniques to just be aware and persist despite it all. Sometimes I do things to change my internal self, sometimes I just treat it like a person that needs certain random things to be at top performance. It depends.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#50

Post by tick_tock_tick »

pubby wrote: post #48

Female sexual attraction favors secure men who don't talk feelings. This results in men feeling unable to express their emotions around their significant other. On the other side, male sexuality selects based on looks more than anything. Feminism calls the latter shallow and toxic, but truthfully both should have that label. Neither is serving society or evolution well anymore. But what can we do? Sexual attraction i…

Both sides actually select for looks more than any other characteristic.
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