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Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

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Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#41
post #9

If you test for average pilots, then you've still got approx 50% of pilots who aren't capable. Whatever happened to testing for the lowest common denominator - especially in life and death situations?

How about we take below-average pilots, have them run the test right after their normal full shift ends without any rest in between, and give them a glass of whisky for encouragement?

Welcome to the Aperture Laboratories Aircraft Enrichment Centre!

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#42

The primary design objective of the 737 max was to avoid pilot retraining. Until that stops being a major economic driver in aviation no problem was solved here. Changing MCAS another dozen times and updating the manuals does nothing to prevent this from happening in new future system design.

There’s a tension between progress (some of which offers fuel [and ecological] savings) and cost. If you can make a plane that saves an airline $1MM/year/copy but costs them $4MM extra and $500K/yr in training costs, you won’t sell as many as if it costs them $3MM extra and requires no retraining (or even $5MM/$0). Sometimes that difference is enough to make the project not viable economically. Certification is incre…

Airline flights, and international travel generally, is _incredibly cheap_ compared to basically all human history. Adding in just a little more cost for a measurable, significant safety benefit seems like an obvious choice.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#44
post #9

If you test for average pilots, then you've still got approx 50% of pilots who aren't capable. Whatever happened to testing for the lowest common denominator - especially in life and death situations?

How about we take below-average pilots, have them run the test right after their normal full shift ends without any rest in between, and give them a glass of whisky for encouragement?

In all seriousness (but with less fun), a similar effect can be produced simply by asking them to be reciting the alphabet constantly, solving addition problems constantly being fed to them, etc. -- anything that is constantly distracting half their brain.

In fact, this is a similar technique some actors use to make sure they know their lines cold -- no matter how well they can recite them with full concentration, can they still recite them while playing an intense video game? Because things will be so different on stage/set, it will be equivalently distracting.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#45

The primary design objective of the 737 max was to avoid pilot retraining. Until that stops being a major economic driver in aviation no problem was solved here. Changing MCAS another dozen times and updating the manuals does nothing to prevent this from happening in new future system design.

There's a lot of safety value in not having to be retrained, too.

It's sort of key when taking that approach to actually succeed in not requiring the retraining.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#46
post #23

Wouldn't you need the worse pilot you can get? Average doesn't account for the fact that 50% of the sample are WORSE.

Robert Sheckley has a short story called The Minimum Man, which is about precisely this. An unlucky, clumsy, error-prone schlub who gets hired by basically-NASA for testing purposes.

Turns out, when he's placed in a life-or-death situation, he finds some focus and skill, and is no longer the minimum man. So they have some ways to counter that tendency....

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#47
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know what you think ‘average’ means. Median is an average.

Most commonly it is used for the mean though...

Less than you might think. Mean is easier to calculate and tends to be close enough, but when there are are significant outliers people tend to revert to the median.

Life expectancy for example is calculated via median. Median income is generally used over average etc.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#48

The primary design objective of the 737 max was to avoid pilot retraining. Until that stops being a major economic driver in aviation no problem was solved here. Changing MCAS another dozen times and updating the manuals does nothing to prevent this from happening in new future system design.

There’s a tension between progress (some of which offers fuel [and ecological] savings) and cost. If you can make a plane that saves an airline $1MM/year/copy but costs them $4MM extra and $500K/yr in training costs, you won’t sell as many as if it costs them $3MM extra and requires no retraining (or even $5MM/$0). Sometimes that difference is enough to make the project not viable economically. Certification is incre…

This problem would be resolved if type certifications expired.

Eg. A newly certified plane type can be produced for 15 years before requiring recertification to new standards.

In effect, this forces Boeing to come up with new designs, since the chances of old designs meeting new standards are low. It'll give them a big incentive to find ways to get the cost of certifications down.

Up to them if they choose to evolve the plane with the standards, or do a ground-up redesign every 15 years.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#49

I'm not sure the criteria for determining an 'average' pilot but if becoming a test pilot is a big incentive for trying to be the best you can wouldn't this drag the average pilot quality down?

There's a role for test pilots in aircraft development, and certification pilots, used in rating an aircraft for commercial use. You'll want the good ones for that first task.

I think trying to think of pilots as being good or bad on some abstract scale is almost certainly an oversimplification.

The reality is probably more like for developers, some of the best developers in terms of achievements are not people you'd want to work with on a daily basis. In the same way that an F1 driver wouldn't necessarily be the world's best bus driver.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#50
Those can be found in the spherical cow aisle.

I'm sure the intentions are good but shouldn't the goal here be to use the least qualified, but still qualified pilots for testing? After all if the average pilots are passing the test but the least qualified, but still qualified pilots do not then it is a matter of time before the next crash. Boeing sells their planes all over the globe and I suspect that the average and the mean could be quite a ways apart and that the least good but still qualified pilot still sits comfortably below either.

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