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Development and testing of the Stuxnet worm

nytimes.com

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Re: Development and testing of the Stuxnet worm

#21

Post by MichaelSalib »

ecuzzillo wrote: post #19
MichaelSalib wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran doesn't get nukes until later So, we're not going to change the end-game, we're just going to piss of Iran....and you think that's good? Consider things from the Iranian's perspective. Back in the day, they were establishing a legitimate democratically elected government. The US overthrew that government and pushed a brutal dictator into power, who tortured and murdered many Iranians. From their perspective, the…

The Iran political situation is not exactly about to topple, but it's not the most stable situation in the world, either. Four-plus years is a really long time when we're talking about the CIA's/US's/Israel's ability to topple a potentially vulnerable regime.

Perhaps we'll be as successful as we were in Cuba! Or maybe North Korea! Or Iraq....We've only been trying to overthrow the government in Cuba for, oh, about half a century. I'm sure we'll nail it any day now. True, Cuba is 90 miles from the US and we've got millions of spanish speakers, so toppling the Iranian government should be a piece of cake given how many Farsi speakers work for the US government!

Even if we were successful, what makes you think alternate Iranian regimes would differ on nuclear policy from the current one? Or is the plan to replace the current regime with another brutal dictator who will have zero popular legitimacy? After all, that's worked out so well for us in the past....

Finally, has Israel ever successfully toppled a regime anywhere in the world?

Re: Development and testing of the Stuxnet worm

#22

Post by tsotha »

dmix wrote: post #3

It's seemingly safe to believe that there is a very high probability that the US and Israel are behind Stuxnet. According to Wikipedia, if this is true than 2010 had the first occurrence of cyber-warfare between nation states in our history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet

>It's seemingly safe to believe that there is a very high probability that the US and Israel are behind Stuxnet.

I guess, if you're willing to take the word of unidentified people who may or may not even exist. Though you did include a lot of weasel words in that sentence...

Re: Development and testing of the Stuxnet worm

#23

Post by askar_yu »

bootload wrote: post #6
dmix wrote: post #3

It's seemingly safe to believe that there is a very high probability that the US and Israel are behind Stuxnet. According to Wikipedia, if this is true than 2010 had the first occurrence of cyber-warfare between nation states in our history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet

"... 2010 had the first occurrence of cyber-warfare between nation states in our history ..." Estonia reported in 2007 - "Russia accused of unleashing cyberwar to disable Estonia" Ian Traynor, Guardian, 17 May 2007 ~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/may/17/topstories3.russ...

2008's conflict between Russia and Georgia had also a had cyber aspect.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/georgia-takes-a-bea...

Re: Development and testing of the Stuxnet worm

#24

Post by MichaelSalib »

extension wrote: post #18
MichaelSalib wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran doesn't get nukes until later So, we're not going to change the end-game, we're just going to piss of Iran....and you think that's good? Consider things from the Iranian's perspective. Back in the day, they were establishing a legitimate democratically elected government. The US overthrew that government and pushed a brutal dictator into power, who tortured and murdered many Iranians. From their perspective, the…

So, we're not going to change the end-game, we're just going to piss of Iran....and you think that's good? All I want is for nobody to get nuked. I think it's more likely that nobody will get nuked if Iran doesn't have nukes. But you're right that Stuxnet is a dirty move that erodes trust, that's why I'm conflicted. We have a terrible track record of getting large scale systems secured, even in areas where those syst…

I think it's more likely that nobody will get nuked if Iran doesn't have nukes.

But this doesn't stop Iran from getting nukes, it only delays them. And I don't see why Iran getting nukes increases the probability of anyone getting nuked. A nuclear Iran is an Iran that still responds to deterrence.

Surely going from complete obliviousness to awareness is the biggest step the industry will ever take to being secure

Discovering that you have untreatable cancer will not alter how long you live.

they are more technically inclined and disciplined.

Wrong. Do you know anyone who does instrumentation and control work for power plants? These are people who are very skilled...in their field. In my experience, they don't know a lot about security because they don't have to. They don't have millions of script kiddies and organized crime hammering their code looking for exploits so they can afford to be blissfully ignorant. And they're no more disciplined than any other developer.

Re: Development and testing of the Stuxnet worm

#25

Post by Estragon »

I probably shouldn't be surprised by willful ignorance anymore, but it amazes me that everybody in the article can celebrate this achievement and at the same time admit that it's just "pushing back the clock." Israel's still going to get hit by a nuclear weapon some time, because the technology to build one is just going to keep getting cheaper and more accessible.

Re: Development and testing of the Stuxnet worm

#26

Post by _szvt »

You Americans don't get it. Israel and US murder our scientists. They try to stop our progress towards nuclear energy. They put sanction on us so we can't buy things like air planes and our planes are old and they crash and people die. ... All because of what? Because they believe we want to build stupid nuclear bomb -which we don't- and they have no evidence of it. So we stay in a war. Peace is never going to become a reality. And It's Americans fault.

Re: Development and testing of the Stuxnet worm

#27

Post by jhamburger »

MichaelSalib wrote: post #15
extension wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Iran is going to do, or is already doing, cyberwarfare then they'll do it whether or not they get attacked first. But now, everyone will be on guard. I think for the most part, Stuxnet will be a one of a kind event in history. Though it's a nasty thing to do, only one team ever gets to do it, and I'd rather it be us than them.

If Iran is going to do, or is already doing, cyberwarfare then they'll do it whether or not they get attacked first. Why? Is that because you assume that Iranians are irrational and evil? Usually people do stuff because it benefits them somehow. So, why exactly would Iran launch a cyberwarfare attack against the US in a world where the US didn't strike first? But now, everyone will be on guard. Given how completely w…

'Rational' and 'personal gain' are kind of relative to your worldview. The people running Iran believe that if they launch a missile into Tel Aviv, the worst thing that can happen is they get sent to paradise for eternity and Allah is waiting to give them a high-five for wiping Israel off the map. Is it still 'irrational' for them to do so?

Re: Development and testing of the Stuxnet worm

#28

Post by MichaelSalib »

jhamburger wrote: post #27
MichaelSalib wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Iran is going to do, or is already doing, cyberwarfare then they'll do it whether or not they get attacked first. Why? Is that because you assume that Iranians are irrational and evil? Usually people do stuff because it benefits them somehow. So, why exactly would Iran launch a cyberwarfare attack against the US in a world where the US didn't strike first? But now, everyone will be on guard. Given how completely w…

'Rational' and 'personal gain' are kind of relative to your worldview. The people running Iran believe that if they launch a missile into Tel Aviv, the worst thing that can happen is they get sent to paradise for eternity and Allah is waiting to give them a high-five for wiping Israel off the map. Is it still 'irrational' for them to do so?

The people running Iran believe that if they launch a missile into Tel Aviv, the worst thing that can happen is they get sent to paradise for eternity and Allah is waiting to give them a high-five for wiping Israel off the map.

Do you have a cite proving this claim?

Re: Development and testing of the Stuxnet worm

#29

Post by btmorex »

Estragon wrote: post #25

I probably shouldn't be surprised by willful ignorance anymore, but it amazes me that everybody in the article can celebrate this achievement and at the same time admit that it's just "pushing back the clock." Israel's still going to get hit by a nuclear weapon some time, because the technology to build one is just going to keep getting cheaper and more accessible.

You think it's inevitable that Israel gets nuked? I find that very unlikely, especially since the attacking nation would definitely be destroyed as well.

Iran doesn't want nukes so that they can destroy Israel. They wants nukes, because obtaining them immediately makes them powerful on the world stage. (and I say that as someone who really doesn't want to see them get nukes too because they're a crazy religious theocracy)

Re: Development and testing of the Stuxnet worm

#30

Post by _szvt »

btmorex wrote: post #29
Estragon wrote: post #25

I probably shouldn't be surprised by willful ignorance anymore, but it amazes me that everybody in the article can celebrate this achievement and at the same time admit that it's just "pushing back the clock." Israel's still going to get hit by a nuclear weapon some time, because the technology to build one is just going to keep getting cheaper and more accessible.

You think it's inevitable that Israel gets nuked? I find that very unlikely, especially since the attacking nation would definitely be destroyed as well. Iran doesn't want nukes so that they can destroy Israel. They wants nukes, because obtaining them immediately makes them powerful on the world stage. (and I say that as someone who really doesn't want to see them get nukes too because they're a crazy religious theoc…

Think for one minute. Who is the craziest nation in this regard? Who has used nukes twice to murder people. US of course.
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