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Employer health plans are getting pricier and skimpier

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Re: Employer health plans are getting pricier and skimpier

#481
post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding Europe, which I happen to have friends all over: it's not exactly as rosy. European countries do have more doctors per capita, which is good. They don't have nearly as much resources in the system, though. Come to a doctor with a bad cough, get a prescription for Paracetamol. You got to have a pretty bad infection to get a prescription for an antibiotic. Endure a long discussion with a doctor to renew an an…

I'll chime in with my experience in Austria: * If I have a cold, I go to a doctor without appointment and if I'm unlucky, I have to wait for 2 hours. Usually it's 30-60 minutes. * If I have a specific thing that requires a specialist, I may or may not have to get a referral from a general practitioner first. Most specialist don't really need it, but for an allergy test I needed to get one. This puts me at 2 x 60 minu…

Can confirm. I am from Slovenia, which just copy pasted this system (mostly), and it works decently.

we are not as ritch as Austria and that shows, so if you don't have emergency wait lists for certain things are longer.

Re: Employer health plans are getting pricier and skimpier

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you insure yourself privately, you can not deduct it from taxes? That would be an issue then, but seems easy to fix. Why isn't that part of the health care discussion?

You can deduct it, but there are a couple of distinct minimums in the tax code for how much you have to spend before it starts reducing your taxable income. ( https://www.insurance.com/health-insurance/health-insurance-... ) Also, for simplicity, I left out payroll taxes, which are invisibly paid by your employer directly to the government ( https://squareup.com/us/en/townsquare/payroll-taxes-defined ). So the choice…

If employers can deduct more for health insurance than private people, it seems unfair and rigged.

Payroll taxes are another matter to me, that's mostly window dressing. Either employer pays the tax to the government, or pays it to employees and they pay it to the government. The outcome is the same.

I think payroll taxes exist mostly to hide the amount of taxes they pay from the population.

Re: Employer health plans are getting pricier and skimpier

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People should pay for their healthcare directly, and the government should provide for those who require serious, expensive treatments (after a payment that is some percentage of their income). It's cheaper for the government to pay for everything. If you incentivize skipping check-ups and minor treatments they turn into large expensive care. The rest of the western world has had universal health care for ~50 years…

> The US should just choose a country and copy it. Just because X policy works elsewhere doesn't mean it would have the same effect in another country.

No, but the fact that it does work somewhere gives it a huge advantage over completely untested plans.

Re: Employer health plans are getting pricier and skimpier

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big business likes the level of control. Employees are limited in their job mobility, especially to small companies. It restricts competition, it also suppressed wages. Big business in the U.S. gets what it wants, and if they didn’t want employer provided healthcare it would be gone, but it’s not gone so it means they like it. If there was universal healthcare in the U.S. there would be an explosion of small business…

How can "big business" prevent alternative insurance companies?

Lobbying for preferred tax treatment.

If insurance costs $500/mo, either your company can pay the premium for you directly, with no taxable event for you; or, they can give you $500 more as a part of your salary, but the government will take $150 of that (or whatever, depending on your tax bracket), and then you have $350 to cover a $500 expense.

Individuals can deduct medical/insurance payments on their taxes every year, but: 1) the rules are complicated with some payment minimums that mean a lot of people couldn't take the deduction at all, and 2) you have to come up with the extra $150 every month for 12 months before you get that money back (since the US tax system is pay-as-you-go with per-paycheck withholding), which is a real burden for many Americans.

Alternatively, your company can give you $715 per month, the government will take $215 of that in taxes, and then you have $500 left over to pay your $500 insurance bill, but: 1) your company would very much rather pay $500 instead of give you $715, and 2) that $715 is actually not a hard number, but will vary depending on each employee's personal tax situation, which can change throughout the year, and your company likely doesn't care to deal with that (this is less of a big deal, since it could be outsourced to a piece of software written by a payroll company).

Why do Americans put up with this? Many of them (most?) just don't understand how this all works, and so don't even know they're getting screwed. Many have no concept of systems in other countries that handle this better, in part because they don't travel and don't have friends or family abroad, but more because of concerted misinformation campaigns around any kind of changes to our health care system that would threaten the incumbents.

I guess big business doesn't "prevent" alternative insurance companies; there are plenty of available options for insurance that individuals can purchase on their own. But it generally costs more (because you're not an HR benefits person negotiating on behalf of your 500-, 1000-, 50000-person company), and you end up with the bad tax consequences described above.

If you're an enterprising individual who wants to set up an alternative insurance company that charges very low premiums for great plans, you run into the problem of having no negotiating power with health care providers, who are used to charging high prices because the traditional insurers will pay them.

Re: Employer health plans are getting pricier and skimpier

#485

Imagine if grocery stores forced us to choose one of a few dozen grocery "insurance" memberships to buy groceries, and negotiated directly with the insurers. No prices are labeled in store, they just detect whatever you take and send you a bill at the end of the month. (Differing brands of the same food product are not available in store of course.) Individuals are charged 3-100x more per product than negotiated rate…

Can you explain to a Non-American what forces this system of employer insurance onto the US? Why don't independent insurance companies emerge that offer other models of insurance?

Another factor that hasn't been mentioned yet is adverse selection.

Individual health insurance plans do exist, but few healthy people buy them, so the pool is sicker than average, so the insurance costs more, so even fewer healthy people buy the plans, and so on.

Employer group plans cost less in part because the pool is generally healthy.

Re: Employer health plans are getting pricier and skimpier

#486

Imagine if grocery stores forced us to choose one of a few dozen grocery "insurance" memberships to buy groceries, and negotiated directly with the insurers. No prices are labeled in store, they just detect whatever you take and send you a bill at the end of the month. (Differing brands of the same food product are not available in store of course.) Individuals are charged 3-100x more per product than negotiated rate…

> but that it would have to be much _more_ like grocery stores to call it a free market. Except not really. If I'm poor I can choose to eat nothing but ramen. I might not like it, it might not be the best for me, but it'll keep me alive. If I'm poor and have a heart attack I can't choose to just take tylenol, I do need that bypass surgery. The ability to walk away from a transaction entirely is what makes the market…

I don't think that's a great analogy.

There are plenty of medical conditions where there are several options for how to manage it. With insurance, people usually choose based on risk of failure or complications, recovery time, etc. Without insurance, someone might choose primarily based on price, and a poor person might go for the cheapest option. For some non-life-threatening issues, a poor person might refuse treatment if the cost for even the most minimal intervention is too high.

This is obviously not what we want -- ideally, we want some reasonably-high minimum level of care so people don't have to choose between, say, starvation and permanent disfigurement -- so, as the parent says, we don't want health care to be exactly like a grocery store, but this kind of thing would be more like a free market for health care.

(And even in your example, you still have to buy and eat that ramen. Sure, you don't have to pay for steak, but you have to buy something. You can't just walk away from the transaction entirely.)

Re: Employer health plans are getting pricier and skimpier

#487
post #383

Imagine if grocery stores forced us to choose one of a few dozen grocery "insurance" memberships to buy groceries, and negotiated directly with the insurers. No prices are labeled in store, they just detect whatever you take and send you a bill at the end of the month. (Differing brands of the same food product are not available in store of course.) Individuals are charged 3-100x more per product than negotiated rate…

Then imagine that there are some people who can't afford the food they need in the grocery store and are going to die. Alternatives and transparent pricing isn't going to make brain surgery affordable to the average consumer.

As I see it, there are two solutions. Either all medical costs are "free" for the consumer and paid for via a tax, or you have a proper insurance system where consumers participate in a transparent market for non-urgent medical care and buy insurance only for things they can't afford. The latter needs some extra regulations for emergency care where you can't compare prices.

Re: Employer health plans are getting pricier and skimpier

#488

Imagine if grocery stores forced us to choose one of a few dozen grocery "insurance" memberships to buy groceries, and negotiated directly with the insurers. No prices are labeled in store, they just detect whatever you take and send you a bill at the end of the month. (Differing brands of the same food product are not available in store of course.) Individuals are charged 3-100x more per product than negotiated rate…

Can you explain to a Non-American what forces this system of employer insurance onto the US? Why don't independent insurance companies emerge that offer other models of insurance?

There's both historical and insurance-business (underwriting) reasons.

The history: wage-price controls implemented during WWII as labour was taken up by the military and companies had to find some basis other than pay on which to differentiate. Benefits, including health care, were excluded from wage consideration.

Insurance itself is the business of assessing, managing, and sharing (or "pooling") risk. In the case of health care, the typical costs that a given population will face are predictable based on age, gender, and various exposures. Given a sufficiently large number of people, a group or policy cost can be assessed. Along with other groups, this results in pooled risk.

I'm not an actuary, but "large pool" risk is fairly low, I suspect it's on the order of 30 or so people. Smaller pools can be formed (or more likely: aggregated to form larger ones), down to a small number of members, as few as a handful or so.

The idea being that in any given pool, what's called "adverse selection" (people specifically looking for insurance due to high risks) are less likely -- you're dealing with the average population.

In individual markets, all of this becomes much less predictable, and/or the transaction and administrative costs of individual insurance simply add up.

Since a large share of the population works, or lives in a household with someone who does, allocating healthcare group insurance through employment has more-or-less stuck in the US.

The fact that it provides yet more leverage and control by employers over employees is another factor, of course.

Source: A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, I studied this at uni. Plus more recent experiences / exploration.

Re: Employer health plans are getting pricier and skimpier

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain to a Non-American what forces this system of employer insurance onto the US? Why don't independent insurance companies emerge that offer other models of insurance?

There's both historical and insurance-business (underwriting) reasons. The history: wage-price controls implemented during WWII as labour was taken up by the military and companies had to find some basis other than pay on which to differentiate. Benefits, including health care, were excluded from wage consideration. Insurance itself is the business of assessing, managing, and sharing (or "pooling") risk. In the case…

Great comment. I’ll agree and add that the pool of people working full-time itself serves as a beneficial selection process for the insurance pool. It includes (expensive) births but excludes a lot of expensive debilitating conditions so long as that condition precludes someone working full-time.

Re: Employer health plans are getting pricier and skimpier

#490
post #427
post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point centers around two things; 1) We cannot provide the same services with the same mechanisms, processes, and infrastructure at 50% of the current price. The margin simply isn’t that high. Everything from the design of the hospital, to the regulations around the equipment provisioned in each room, to the processes followed by staff throughout a given patient visit need to change, along with the specific tools a…

And yet it manages Medicare. Poll Medicare recipients and ask them what they think of it. It also manages Social Security. And provides for the national defense. The government is entirely capable passing effective legislation, or at least half of it is. In any case, the current system is both unfair and unsustainable. Something has to give.

Just to be clear, Medicare costs are roughly 50% higher again per person than the current average US cost per person. Patient population being a major confounder in that comparison, of course.

US defense spending is by far the highest of any other country in the world, and renowned for its wastefulness.

Social Security is going bust whenever we talk about it, and is merely a program which confiscated money today, in order to hand it out tomorrow, and doesn’t even invest it in the meantime.

And which half of government is it that’s capable of passing legislation again?

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