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America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

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Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The presumption in your comment is that the system that replaces the legal system in these situations is equally or more unjust - however according to the authors, by realizing why the legal system is unjust, a university body may do a better job - after all, it is undoubtedly easier to change the laws of a university body than to change them in society as a whole, and the university body may not subject to the same…

> The presumption in your comment is that the system that replaces the legal system in these situations is equally or more unjust No, I'm actually presuming that injustice cannot be weighed and compared. Statements like "equally or more unjust" are fallacious. If injustice is demonstrable, then we know where the injustice is and so where to focus our efforts , since presumably our goal ought to be eliminating injusti…

>If injustice is demonstrable, then we know where the injustice is and so where to focus our efforts, since presumably our goal ought to be eliminating injustice.

The central position taken by the authors comes from MacKinnon's Marxist Theory of the State which argues that such change cannot happen within the state as it exists, with all the relations which have constructed it - the argument being that sexist injustice exists prior to the law, and in the law's veneer of equality, it assumes that there is no fundamental injustice to be corrected - the dogma that justice is blind works against justice, not for it. A system in which justice isn't so poorly sighted, and which, according to the authors, starts from the recognition of injustice prior to the law of the state, would be a just one. I'm not convinced that it's fallacious to talk of being "more" or "less" just, since I'm comfortable saying that a Western European country's legal system is more just than Saudi Arabia's.

>as opposed to gradually evolving the buggy system to a better state

Critical legal theory takes the metalegal position that this gradual evolution is impossible given the totality of relations which determine the law. That is to say, the law is a reflection of the society it rules over, its relations of power, of property, of information, knowledge and other things.

>Laws should be hard to change.

It's hard for me to take that as a priori a good thing when laws as they exist in any system reinforce a likely unjust status quo. The law being hard to change seems like a bad situation to be in if you were a Saudi Arabian woman who wanted to drive five years ago. Nevertheless, it circles back to the main point: there are different standards for the law governing society and the law governing a university.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#332
post #322

It is a sad thing to say, but the simple solution to this alarming trend of rescinding consent after having consensual sex is to record the audio of your interactions with the opposite sex. A voice-activated recorder that can store months worth of conversations can be purchased on Amazon quite cheaply. I've even heard of work situations where male managers refuse one-on-one meetings with female employees due to fear…

This is Richard Nixon level paranoia. I think that your second point is probably occurring quite a lot, especially in tech, where empathy & people skills aren't always high up on the list of priorities. But to walk around with suspicion to the point of carrying around a microphone is just lunacy. It's also an overreaction to such an unlikely outcome of being accused of misconduct with a female employee. It affects su…

> But to walk around with suspicion to the point of carrying around a microphone is just lunacy

you are straw manning heavily here. OP suggested recording high stakes interactions with the potential to turn sour at a later date, not what you've said here about walking around wired.

what are your arguments against saving evidence for high stakes interactions that could turn into socially and career ruining consequences later? you know this is done in non-sexual contexts e.g. police interviews already, right?

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#333

In my junior year of college (very early 2000s), a senior friend was accused of rape by a classmate. Within two days he had to hide out at my girlfriend's house because a large group of large athletes was on the hunt for him to beat him up. Within weeks he was expelled from school. I don't recall the police ever being contacted. Turns out the girl was ashamed she voluntarily slept with him. She admitted it to friends…

I think it's horrible that this happened, but to be perfectly honest, this is why society is having a massive argument around what consent means. Did she really consent to having sex with him if she felt so ashamed of it afterward that she accused him of raping her? How voluntary was it really? If you're a kid in this position, wondering whether it's dangerous to have sex, the answer is yes, it's one of the most dang…

Using your logic: Drugs are dangerous. Your rights being violated, your stuff being taken, and getting thrown in jail are just a few more dangers. If you don't want those things to happen, don't do drugs.

The flaw is that you can't equate natural and artificial dangers. Natural dangers are equal-opportunity dangers. Artificial dangers can be used to oppress people.

Also, avoiding behavior X is not enough to avoid the danger. There's not much evidence that Brett Kavanaugh was ever alone with Christine Blasey-Ford, but he still faced serious danger from her.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I continue to struggle to make ends meet. I'm currently broke. I'm sorry to hear that. > It has resulted in nearly zero professional connections I looked at your website a bit, but I am curious. Is it too much to ask what kind of professional connections do you seek? Maybe somebody around this thread has something for you, by sheer coincidence.

I blog. (For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21064999 ) Patreon supporters or tips would be nice. I do resume work. Five pages per week of that would keep me in groceries. I also do other things, not pertinent to the HN crowd. There are other goals I'm working on. But those are the most immediately actionable.

Hope you don't taken offence, but since you mentioned groceries I am curious what you think of something like a food bank?

About a month ago I started volunteering passing out groceries at one of those here in San Francisco. I don't know what the process is like for recipients, but I see the same faces come in each week, regular looking people, sometimes with family or children in tow, and they seem pretty well provided for with some good ingredients for the week.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I blog. (For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21064999 ) Patreon supporters or tips would be nice. I do resume work. Five pages per week of that would keep me in groceries. I also do other things, not pertinent to the HN crowd. There are other goals I'm working on. But those are the most immediately actionable.

Hope you don't taken offence, but since you mentioned groceries I am curious what you think of something like a food bank? About a month ago I started volunteering passing out groceries at one of those here in San Francisco. I don't know what the process is like for recipients, but I see the same faces come in each week, regular looking people, sometimes with family or children in tow, and they seem pretty well provi…

I've done that in the past. I have a serious medical condition with significant dietary restrictions, a dead fridge and limited cooking ability. When I did that recently, a lot of what I got was cold food which spoiled overnight because my fridge is dead and I don't have the funds to replace it right now.

It's just vastly better for me if I earn the money and it's not a huge amount that I need, so it's frustrating as hell that I can't come up with it consistently.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

something like this deterring actual victims from coming forward This is also a possibility, but it's pretty much universally accepted that it's better to let a criminal go than to punish an innocent person.

I don't agree. I would argue that the rise of the victims' rights movement suggests that culturally, the United States is beginning to see the few false reports/convictions as an acceptable casualty to the vast majority of truthful reports. I mean, we have Marsy's Law being added to state constitutions left and right. One of its provisions is that the victim[1] can refuse a deposition before trial. This obviously con…

Innocent until proved guilty is a fundamental principle of American values. I don't at all see why we should throw that out the window and say that "a few people falsly convicted is an acceptable casualty" just so we can catch more perpetrators.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#337

This is a very difficult issue. Most sexual assaults happen in private, so there is rarely any evidence a victim can use to convict the perpetrator. Most accusations are real, but some are questionable as to whether a crime was committed, and some accusations are false. Given there is almost never any evidence, victims are at a severe disadvantage in the innocent until proven guilty paradigm. I can understand why som…

Innocent-until-proven-guilty is morally, ethically, and logically superior to guilty-until-proven-innocent.

The former is the high ground, the latter is the low ground. Full stop.

I have empathy for accusers and the accused. But I don't have any empathy for people pushing guilty-until-proven-innocent.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should make the punishment for falsely accusing someone of rape equivalent to the punishment for rape. That's take care of the problem.

This assumes the court system is infallible though when we know it is not. Plus, I can see something like this deterring actual victims from coming forward.

It doesn't. Not saying that we should throw in jail any accuser who fails to prove their case. But if it's proven they made it up, then we should. There are three outcomes, not two: proven guilty, inconclusive, proven not guilty. Either end comes with an equivalent penalty, middle comes with acquittal.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

something like this deterring actual victims from coming forward This is also a possibility, but it's pretty much universally accepted that it's better to let a criminal go than to punish an innocent person.

I don't agree. I would argue that the rise of the victims' rights movement suggests that culturally, the United States is beginning to see the few false reports/convictions as an acceptable casualty to the vast majority of truthful reports. I mean, we have Marsy's Law being added to state constitutions left and right. One of its provisions is that the victim[1] can refuse a deposition before trial. This obviously con…

This is precisely what another commenter on this thread meant when they said the presumption of innocence that underlies our system of justice is currently eroding in modern society. Assuming guilt gives too much leeway for authoritarian abuse

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is Richard Nixon level paranoia. I think that your second point is probably occurring quite a lot, especially in tech, where empathy & people skills aren't always high up on the list of priorities. But to walk around with suspicion to the point of carrying around a microphone is just lunacy. It's also an overreaction to such an unlikely outcome of being accused of misconduct with a female employee. It affects su…

> But to walk around with suspicion to the point of carrying around a microphone is just lunacy you are straw manning heavily here. OP suggested recording high stakes interactions with the potential to turn sour at a later date, not what you've said here about walking around wired. what are your arguments against saving evidence for high stakes interactions that could turn into socially and career ruining consequence…

Conversations in the workplace happen organically. Sometimes the CEO will approach you at the water cooler and say, hey, got a sec? What are you gonna do? Say "brb let me grab my recording device?" Or start filming the encounter like people film the police?
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