Live data from Hacker News

America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

tabletmag.com

301–310 of 387 posts

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#301
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we should take statistics into account. I think there's a likelihood that someone will lie about being raped, and a likelihood of them identifying a named individual (two numbers that should be considered seperately, since young girls who fall pregnant may lie to avoid blame, while not trying to blame anyone in particular). I think that similarly, there's a percentage of retractions that will also be false, f…

This is exactly the problem. You want to determine guilt based on what you believe is generally true about the world. Not about the facts of the case at hand. The negative ramifications of this mindset for the accused are hard to overstate.

How is that not equally true of anyone who makes the opposite determination?

We have no information besides a third party report of an accusation and a retraction.

My understanding of the world is that false accusations are rarer than many people think and false retractions are more common.

There's negative ramifications that are hard to overstate to that as well.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#302
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A whole lot of this BS is rooted in the idea that a woman's sexuality is a prize to be won by an "eligible" male -- ie a man who earns enough to take care of her. There is a subtext of ownership there. Both sides perpetuate this, but I see this coming from women much more than men.

Perhaps that's because most women need a man's income to not be dirt poor. I appear to be the highest ranked woman on HN. I appear to be the only woman to ever have spent time on the leader board. It has resulted in nearly zero professional connections. When I complain about that, I get blown off and told that's not something I should expect from HN, nevermind that it works that way for plenty of men. I was homeless…

I don't think "Popular commenter on HN" is a position in many companies. You're supposed to check the "Who's hiring?" threads and see where your skills would match the job description and contact them. That's about it on HN, this isn't really a job seeking board.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#303
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the problem. You want to determine guilt based on what you believe is generally true about the world. Not about the facts of the case at hand. The negative ramifications of this mindset for the accused are hard to overstate.

How is that not equally true of anyone who makes the opposite determination? We have no information besides a third party report of an accusation and a retraction. My understanding of the world is that false accusations are rarer than many people think and false retractions are more common. There's negative ramifications that are hard to overstate to that as well.

Have you considered that it is not your job to make a determination?

If someone shares a story like this you politely believe them and move on, comfortable in the knowledge that it may or may not be true.

"Your understanding" is purely anecdotal.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#304
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The woman admitted she lied, in private, to friends. Where is the coercion? Are you saying we should only believe women when they are accusing men of rape? And disbelieve them later?

I think we should take statistics into account. I think there's a likelihood that someone will lie about being raped, and a likelihood of them identifying a named individual (two numbers that should be considered seperately, since young girls who fall pregnant may lie to avoid blame, while not trying to blame anyone in particular). I think that similarly, there's a percentage of retractions that will also be false, f…

I think you must be crazy to mix in statistics.

That's why each individual case is being judged individually according to evidence, facts gathered and etc.

With the same mindset you could say that if a member of some group is accused of murder, he must probably be guilty because this group of people statistically are convicted more that exonerated?

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#305

This is a very difficult issue. Most sexual assaults happen in private, so there is rarely any evidence a victim can use to convict the perpetrator. Most accusations are real, but some are questionable as to whether a crime was committed, and some accusations are false. Given there is almost never any evidence, victims are at a severe disadvantage in the innocent until proven guilty paradigm. I can understand why som…

I agree with your post that "victims are at a disadvantage", but you say that:

> there is rarely any evidence

while also saying that:

> Most accusations are real

This feels like a contradiction. We can only know whether an accusation is real or not when there is enough evidence. I think that doing extrapolation exercises based on no evidence is a bad idea.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#306
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving aside the hot-button topic of sexual assault, there are plenty of sub-criminal or borderline actions that can occur that the college needs to deal with. Not all violations of a code of conduct are criminal violations. They'd much rather "sentence" an underage drinker to an alcohol education session than have all such students arrested. A lot of this is mission-driven: Schools honestly believe their role is to…

Good point, but underage drinking is a victimless crime. I’d be pretty appalled if I was raped and the only consequence would be that the rapist was expelled...

Underage drinking in and of itself may be victimless in some sense, but schools want students to be responsible, and from a liability point of view they can't simply ignore it when they see it happening. But neither do they want to refer all such cases to law enforcement. So therein lies the desire for education programs and addiction counseling when it is indicated.

Sexual assault is much more complicated. If the accuser doesn't want to report it to law enforcement and press charges, the maximum penalty the school can inflict is expulsion. Historically this has been a problem in a variety of ways. First, schools have sometimes been accused of discouraging the accuser from going to the police. That problem has resulted in dedicated sexual assault response plans to avoid that sort of thing and work with the accuser to connect them to appropriate resources, counseling, etc. Beyond that, the school is in a bind: prior to either legal action or a school-based disciplinary hearing for violation of the code of conduct, it is punitive to inflict punishment like suspension or force schedule changes to avoid the accused coming into contact with their alleged victim. At the same time, if there was an assault, it can very much exacerbate the harm to the victim to keep things as they are. I don't know of a good solution to this. It often results in the accuser being the one that has to change their schedule or drop out to avoid coming into contact with their alleged attacker.

Again, I don't have an answer that both completely protects a victim from further trauma at the same time that it provides the accused with protection from penalty until they are found guilty. Personally, I think it helps the situation when the accuser is willing to go to the police because that opens up other options like a restraining order that can both protect the victim but also provides judicial review before the accused's rights and privileges are abridged. That is still far from ideal in many cases though. No easy answers here.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#307

In my junior year of college (very early 2000s), a senior friend was accused of rape by a classmate. Within two days he had to hide out at my girlfriend's house because a large group of large athletes was on the hunt for him to beat him up. Within weeks he was expelled from school. I don't recall the police ever being contacted. Turns out the girl was ashamed she voluntarily slept with him. She admitted it to friends…

It's not just the school system. I don't dare so much as flirt with anyone in a friendly way, because that becomes fuel for a possible case. It really is to the point where outside of group settings, nothing should ever be done with the opposite sex outside of marriage itself. Whatever women's lib was trying to achieve, it begins to look more and more like Islamization daily. Not to say I hate either, but it seems th…

Good point! My understanding is that the horrific situation depicted in The Handmaid’s Tale started by well-educated women pushing on women’s rights! Also suggest reading Houellebecq’s Submission for a related view about pushing legitimate viewpoints to extreme.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#308
post #60

For the life of me I don’t understand why government funded institutions run their own tribunals. Send it through the proper court system, if the accused is guilty you can expel them cleanly.

If I run a startup, and one of my employees is making other employees uncomfortable, and he keeps getting accused of harassing other employees, and is generally just making some of my best engineers unhappy, hurting productivity, and ruining our carefully constructed culture... ...I can fire him. I mean, obviously I need to go through the proper HR procedures, follow local employment law, respect the terms of his con…

Public universities certainly don’t get to claim treatment as a business. Additionally, like you were driving at, it is dramatically more damaging to be expelled from a university than to be kicked out of a dollar general. And most importantly, if the business’s policy is clearly a thin veil of pretense that allows them to discriminate on the basis of gender (or any other protected category), they are not within their rights. We don’t tolerate businesses asking black patrons (or employees) to leave because a white patron claimed they felt uncomfortable, and we certainly wouldn’t tolerate it from a public institution. And we definitely shouldn’t tolerate it given that universities make students fundamentally more vulnerable than business patrons or standard employees by saddling them with debts that would take them their whole lifetime to pay off if not for a degree. Due process and equitable treatment is not too much to ask.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#309
post #59

>But after a lifetime in service of the feminist cause, she took on the case of a friend whose son she came to believe had been wrongly convicted of rape and won his acquittal on appeal. This is one of the big ways in which sexism is a much more tractable problem than racism and less potentially explosive. Women and men both have members of the opposite sex that they genuinely love. I have heard that fathers with dau…

How would bias toward gay people fit in with that? A lot of people don't know (or at least aren't aware that they know) anyone gay, but bias toward gay people has dramatically fallen over the last couple of decades. There was a recent episode of "Hidden Brain" on NPR that talked about this [1]. This part is particularly interesting: > In a thought experiment, Mahzarin and her colleagues have extended the trend lines…

Might have to do with where a bias stems from. Bias against elderly has to do with deterioration with age. That remains true today. Bias against gay people had to do with the need to protect against disease. This is not true today because education, condom usage and improved treatment have cut down on the impact of stds, eliminating societal need for homophobia.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#310
Honestly I'm just glad to see this being discussed openly and honestly. It's a difficult subject and it's been suppressed on both sides alternatively depending on the time in history (herstory, whatever).

I'm happy that my daughter is doing so well in college and doesn't have to worry about date rape. But I'm terrified of my sons going to college because I know that consensual sex can destroy their lives. And honestly, they're much less likely to even get there or finish in the first place.

Post reply on HN