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Looking Back at the Snowden Revelations

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

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Re: Looking Back at the Snowden Revelations

#21

Post by bayesian_horse »

mistermann wrote: post #6

Snowden's revelations proved once again that conspiracies are all false, because it is literally impossible for large numbers of people to keep their mouth shut. Exactly as we're told on forums, exactly as we're told on TV. This is how you know Epstein is also innocent and why it won't be investigated, because we know people cannot keep silent about committing crimes, therefore we know no crimes were committed.

I think you did not want to state Epstein is innocent right? That would go counter to your prior point.

And yes, conspiracy theorists don't have an accurate appreciation of how hard it is to manage projects and keep them secret.

Re: Looking Back at the Snowden Revelations

#22

Post by bayesian_horse »

raxxorrax wrote: post #19
bayesian_horse wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Particularly it has been ruled that "treason" as per the US constitution or laws is impossible unless war has been declared on a foreign nation.

Makes sense. So that means Snowden cannot be a traitor either or are there exceptions?

Not in the criminal sense.

He violated several laws around the general topic of national security, he made the work of US intelligence agencies harder and he did endanger US troops abroad. He also helped along Putin's general interest of destabilization.

So colloquially, there may be a case to call him a "traitor". It's impossible to clear him from the accusation that he worked with/for a foreign government, maybe even before he fled to Russia. And at the current point in time, he wouldn't be able to refuse any request the Russian government made of him. He also featured in a fake "ask-me-anything" with Putin, just to make that point.

Re: Looking Back at the Snowden Revelations

#23

Post by anilakar »

Craighead wrote: post #16
raxxorrax wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But besides their interest in acquiring exploits, I think their data collection seriously collides with peoples amendment rights against arbitrary state surveillance. I know there are some judges and institutions that enabled this madness, but I think they might be guilty as well. These judges should be accountable to the public in theory. I am not saying the everyone working at the NSA is a criminal. But maybe…

You must not understand how cyber war works. The US has judges and legislation to enable the NSA. Russia, China, Iran, NK, and many other authoritarian states seek to use their power to attack America 24x7 and do so without any oversight.

A few countries actively try to hurt us, so let's spy on everyone, including our own citizens and allies!

Re: Looking Back at the Snowden Revelations

#24

Post by teekert »

mistermann wrote: post #6

Snowden's revelations proved once again that conspiracies are all false, because it is literally impossible for large numbers of people to keep their mouth shut. Exactly as we're told on forums, exactly as we're told on TV. This is how you know Epstein is also innocent and why it won't be investigated, because we know people cannot keep silent about committing crimes, therefore we know no crimes were committed.

Many conspiracies were true until 1 person opened his mouth, what's next? When will someone final admit to 9/11 being an inside job? We are just at a pre-Snowden/whistle-blower stage regarding 9/11.

Re: Looking Back at the Snowden Revelations

#26

Post by raxxorrax »

Craighead wrote: post #16
raxxorrax wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But besides their interest in acquiring exploits, I think their data collection seriously collides with peoples amendment rights against arbitrary state surveillance. I know there are some judges and institutions that enabled this madness, but I think they might be guilty as well. These judges should be accountable to the public in theory. I am not saying the everyone working at the NSA is a criminal. But maybe…

You must not understand how cyber war works. The US has judges and legislation to enable the NSA. Russia, China, Iran, NK, and many other authoritarian states seek to use their power to attack America 24x7 and do so without any oversight.

I am not disputing other countries to not have bad intentions, but as a justification to breaking the law, this seems to be a defense where the guilt has already been determined.

Personally, I think the "cyber war" is the typical scare to reduce civil rights. That is a pretty common pattern to bolster and justify disregarding the law.

In reality, the cyber war is probably still focused on the classical industrial espionage. I fail to see the need to subject citizens to mass surveillance.

Re: Looking Back at the Snowden Revelations

#27

Post by raxxorrax »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #22
raxxorrax wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes sense. So that means Snowden cannot be a traitor either or are there exceptions?

Not in the criminal sense. He violated several laws around the general topic of national security, he made the work of US intelligence agencies harder and he did endanger US troops abroad. He also helped along Putin's general interest of destabilization. So colloquially, there may be a case to call him a "traitor". It's impossible to clear him from the accusation that he worked with/for a foreign government, maybe ev…

My initial statement was nothing else as colloquial and should be regarded as such of course.

I would say implementing mass surveillance would equally make it impossible to clear the NSA from such accusation.

Re: Looking Back at the Snowden Revelations

#28

Post by varjag »

raxxorrax wrote: post #27
bayesian_horse wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in the criminal sense. He violated several laws around the general topic of national security, he made the work of US intelligence agencies harder and he did endanger US troops abroad. He also helped along Putin's general interest of destabilization. So colloquially, there may be a case to call him a "traitor". It's impossible to clear him from the accusation that he worked with/for a foreign government, maybe ev…

My initial statement was nothing else as colloquial and should be regarded as such of course. I would say implementing mass surveillance would equally make it impossible to clear the NSA from such accusation.

That's not colloquial meaning of treason either. Not that there is particular lack of other suitable words for NSA transgressions.

Re: Looking Back at the Snowden Revelations

#29

Post by oh_sigh »

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #3
raxxorrax wrote: post #2

Isn't the practice of the NSA just plainly treason? And why would it not be?

Hypothetically, a benevolent NSA would primarily develop cryptographic security tools for the populace.

Wouldn't those same tools make it easier for the baddies to do their bad things?

Re: Looking Back at the Snowden Revelations

#30

Post by z3phyr »

raxxorrax wrote: post #17
freddie_mercury wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it isn't plainly treason. This is the definition of treason: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. Did the NSA levy war against the US? Did the NSA give aid & comfort to the…

Alright, it doesn't fit here then. But isn't the behavior treasonous towards the constitution that forbids arbitrary data collection. I think their defense here is that nobody actively looks at the data. I think this is bullshit.

Treason would not be the word I choose. Illegal maybe?
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