OSSU: A path to a free self-taught education in computer science • Hacker News Board

Re: OSSU: A path to a free self-taught education in computer science

#111

Post by wolco » Wed, Sep 25, 2019, 5:09 AM UTC

tombert wrote: post #2

This is a bit hypocritical coming from a self-taught dropout, but I have kind of grown to dislike a lot of these "learn programming on your own!" things/bootcamps/courses. This isn't because of some idea that it's bad to learn programming for fun, but more that I think it's kind of reductive to try and squeeze things down to a streamlined lesson to begin with...There's a reason college takes four or more years; it ta…

University doesn't teach you how to code. They delve into complex theory or math proofs.

You still need to learn to code on your own. These self taught systems do come in handy.

Re: OSSU: A path to a free self-taught education in computer science

#112

Post by jlevers » Wed, Sep 25, 2019, 5:10 AM UTC

It seems to me that one of the biggest advantages of having a CS degree from an actual institution is that prospective employers are far more likely to believe that you actually have the skills you say you do.

If you're self-taught, but have truly gone through something like OSSU (or [https://teachyourselfcs.com/](https://teachyourselfcs.com/), or any other set of courses that covers much of what a CS degree would), how do you convince employers that you actually know what you say you know? Sure, you can perform well in the interview, but first you have to make it that far.

Re: OSSU: A path to a free self-taught education in computer science

#113

Post by robomartin » Wed, Sep 25, 2019, 5:15 AM UTC

sarchertech wrote: post #105

robomartin wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with you in one regard, I think you are taking the position of a young person who hasn't had much education outside of high school. Take a look at it from the perspective of a 30 or 40-something with some college or a degree in another domain looking to transition into CS. In this case, the fact that formal CS degrees are, I dare say, polluted, with irrelevant crap is a waste of time, money and brain power…

What college was this that required a "course on Marxism" for a CS degree, and what was the course?

It would not be good form to post this.

Re: OSSU: A path to a free self-taught education in computer science

#114

Post by erikpukinskis » Wed, Sep 25, 2019, 5:15 AM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #98

Pfhreak wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 50/50 on this. Part of me really agrees with you -- you need time and practice and mistakes to learn this stuff. But also, I'm not sure it has to be wall clock time. Four years at university gets you breadth that is probably good for you as a human, and probably important for contextualizing your work as an engineer (oh hey, history might be a valuable lesson for your understanding of ethics. Art and literature m…

I think if you want to do a great job, a four year CS degree should take about four years. You could maybe shave off a year by working through the summers and really pushing. I’m pretty smart, and I worked HARD in my degree program. I did do some extracurriculars in adjacent fields that I could have skipped: psychology courses, a handful of advanced writing and math courses. And I took a handful of masters level clas…

> I just don’t look back [at school] and think “wow, there was a lot of wasted time there”

I can’t edit that post, but I want to add...

I DO look back the majority of coding jobs I’ve had in the Bay Area, and do very much think “wow, there’s a lot of wasted time there.”

Half or more of my time as a pro coder is spent undoing work I just did because the task wasn’t specced correctly, deciphering someone else’s bug because they merged it and left the office, dealing with the same broken infrastructure over and over because new features are always more important, building something that some Dir. Eng. wants, but is totally unproven and won’t matter to any metrics, etc.

I’m not passing the buck here, one of the main goals of my career is to become a better countervailing force to that stuff. But I want to highlight that making it into the workforce doesn’t mean you’re automatically spending all your time doing “real work”... sometimes it’s just the opposite.

Re: OSSU: A path to a free self-taught education in computer science

#115

Post by tastroder » Wed, Sep 25, 2019, 5:16 AM UTC

dlphn___xyz wrote: post #29

why doesnt this exist for any other field? you never hear of a DIY mathematician or economist...further proves that tech is a trade not a profession

Here in Germany we have the different IT trades you can learn on the job in combination with trade school (or the latter exclusively), as well as university level CS courses people can pursue after high school. Some people decide to do both.

Having hired and having close friends from both backgrounds, there's a vast difference in how both groups (on average of course, there's exceptions to everything) approach problems that crop up in the day to day job to the point that I'd call them almost incomparable. Note that I'm not talking about the stereotypical "there's enough bootcamp devs in the world already" type of difference, it's just that within almost the same time span (at least in the case of a bachelor's degree) both get completely different experiences that make them better at those specific aspects of the overall profession.

Re: OSSU: A path to a free self-taught education in computer science

#116

Post by robomartin » Wed, Sep 25, 2019, 5:20 AM UTC

mulderc wrote: post #67

robomartin wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with you in one regard, I think you are taking the position of a young person who hasn't had much education outside of high school. Take a look at it from the perspective of a 30 or 40-something with some college or a degree in another domain looking to transition into CS. In this case, the fact that formal CS degrees are, I dare say, polluted, with irrelevant crap is a waste of time, money and brain power…

How was he forced to take a class on Marx? I have never seen that as a required course at any university.

That was the only class available for several terms that would satisfy the degree requirement. Interestingly enough, that was the only class that was available every term while the others were not.

Even more interesting, they never mentioned Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and his work, The Gulag Archipelago. Everything was painted through rose colored glasses. Pretty disgusting. Thankfully we have a home where education is deemed important. My son had already read many of the classics before going through college and was well equipped to deal with an ideologically biased situation. He also read some of Gulag Archipelago and knew the history of that work.

I recommended he be practical about this class. He did the work, wrote a bullshit paper, got an A and then proceeded to vomit. No harm done.

Re: OSSU: A path to a free self-taught education in computer science

#117

Post by seventhtiger » Wed, Sep 25, 2019, 5:27 AM UTC

wallace_f wrote: post #101

bobloblaw45 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue I have with the "learn to ___ on your own" industry that's popped up is that it doesn't take into account accountability for the student. Take getting into shape as an example. Excluding obvious disabilities there's really nothing holding anyone back. Even with horrible schedules you can absolutely go out and join a gym, lose weight, and get ripped. Heck, you don't even need to join a gym. Everything you ne…

In that case, I wonder what putting down $10-100,000 as an incentive plan would do for a sample of student's resulting grades vs another sample spending that on tuition.

Investment is a factor but it's not the main one for me personally. It's the structured environment and comradery.

Re: OSSU: A path to a free self-taught education in computer science

#118

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Sep 25, 2019, 5:29 AM UTC

arminiusreturns wrote: post #26

lol768 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>oh hey, history might be a valuable lesson for your understanding of ethics. Art and literature might combine with your computer science degree to inspire projects natural language processing or generative art For what it's worth, this is a very American approach to college. You generally wouldn't spend more than 3 years on an undergrad course as a student in the UK - because you tend to spend the vast majority of t…

I think that depends on the country and the type of uni. I have some friends that have been at top notch schools, and I have taken the time to see how they did things, and the trivium and quadrivium seem to be the cornerstones for elite education (which I was trying to self-replicate). That said, it feels like public schools (which are actually private... why this silly naming?) in the UK do this better than private…

> That said, it feels like public schools (which are actually private... why this silly naming?)

Because of the nine originally-charity schools investigated by the Clarendon Commission, they weren't the two that established that they had constitutions guaranteeing their private character which made them immune to the kind of publicly-directed reorganization the other seven were subjected to under the Public Schools Act. That is, they are "public" in the sense that their basic organization was redirected by the State to correct problems found by a government investigation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Schools_Act_1868

Re: OSSU: A path to a free self-taught education in computer science

#119

Post by robomartin » Wed, Sep 25, 2019, 5:30 AM UTC

tapatio wrote: post #80

robomartin wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with you in one regard, I think you are taking the position of a young person who hasn't had much education outside of high school. Take a look at it from the perspective of a 30 or 40-something with some college or a degree in another domain looking to transition into CS. In this case, the fact that formal CS degrees are, I dare say, polluted, with irrelevant crap is a waste of time, money and brain power…

Wait, so you only want him to learn about successful political ideologies?

That is not what I said. No, of course not. But if you ONLY teach Marxism and NOTHING ELSE you are doing the world a huge disservice. Marxism and other ideologies should be taught. Definitely. And they should teach the good, the bad and the ugly. If you want to know what that means, read The Gulag Archipelago for perspective.

Education should not be about indoctrination. Sadly there's a lot of that going on. I am not some crazy right wing guy, not even close. I'm just sick of what our universities have turned into. Someone goes to school to study computer science and they are treated to a solid dose of rosy-glasses Marxism. Those who go into humanities are in for full-on indoctrination. This is a horrible disservice to humanity.

Again, someone please tell me where the intersection between Marxism and Computer Science exists. I've been in CS/Engineering for over 30 years and can't find it.

Why aren't kids reading the Greek philosophers? Plato's Republic is a BRILLIANT piece of work. Aristotle, Socrates. Move forward from that, read Descartes, Kant, Adams and others. So much to learn. So much perspective to acquire. But no, we force kids into immersion in some of the most destructive ideologies known to man. And for what?

Not go off on a tangent, but this is also what is happening now with the whole Climate Change mess. That poor girl from Sweden is being used in vile ways. One of the worst example of indoctrination I have seen in my life. The only thing I that comes to mind that is worse than that are kids indoctrinated into terrorism and hatred. What depths has society sunk to?

Before someone jumps on me. Yes, of course Climate Change is real. Nobody is saying it isn't. And yes, of course we added 100 ppm of CO2 in the last ~1000 years. The issue is, no, we are not all going to die in 12 years and, no, none of what they want to do will help anyone for tens of thousands of years. This is a mess and using children in pursuit of political objectives is a horrific ugly thing.

Re: OSSU: A path to a free self-taught education in computer science

#120

Post by flukus » Wed, Sep 25, 2019, 5:43 AM UTC

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #91

woat wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the self-taught candidate can pass an interview screen at the same level of a new grad, then how does hiring the former become more riskier than the latter?

Passing trivia interview screens is useless, can’t tell you anything useful. You have to dig recursively into technical details about past experience or projects, and for university new grads this would be their education work. What will the self-taught candidate do at this point?

> What will the self-taught candidate do at this point?

Generally self taught people will have built something. I'd generally consider that the definition of self taught and would not include people that have only done self directed learning.