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America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

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Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#141

Post by klipt »

gm678 wrote: post #120
mirimir wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any direct (or indirect) experience. So what happens now if a man accuses a woman of "raping" him? I'm guessing that he'd be ignored. And I don't think the standards will become gender-neutral any faster than they'll become just. I do wonder, though, whether young men are becoming more cautious about who they have sex with. And if there's any way to protect oneself against future rape accusations. Perhap…

" So what happens now if a man accuses a woman of "raping" him? I'm guessing that he'd be ignored. " I do think there is currently a double standard, and I think that misogyny and the view of women as "passive" participants in sex contributes to that. The CDC estimates that 1 in 71 men will be raped in their lifetime, and an analysis by Scientific American found that 79 percent of male victims of rape reported it to…

> The CDC estimates that 1 in 71 men will be raped in their lifetime

For men the category you want to look at is "made to penetrate". For CDC data the "rape" category only counts victims being penetrated, so if a woman forces a man to have sex with her that is instead counted under "made to penetrate".

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#142

Post by klipt »

rayiner wrote: post #110
mirimir wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any direct (or indirect) experience. So what happens now if a man accuses a woman of "raping" him? I'm guessing that he'd be ignored. And I don't think the standards will become gender-neutral any faster than they'll become just. I do wonder, though, whether young men are becoming more cautious about who they have sex with. And if there's any way to protect oneself against future rape accusations. Perhap…

> I do wonder, though, whether young men are becoming more cautious about who they have sex with. This seems to be part of the point of these efforts, and also socially desirable. Don't take advantage of marginal situations; don't toe the line. Don't do anything you can't defend later. Those are all good things to tell young men.

So long as it's framed in a gender neutral way, I agree. There are also young college women having sex with intoxicated men, and their gender shouldn't be a factor in whether or not they get expelled.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#143

Post by oijqoiwejoiqwj »

Lazare wrote: post #60
mieseratte wrote: post #4

For the life of me I don’t understand why government funded institutions run their own tribunals. Send it through the proper court system, if the accused is guilty you can expel them cleanly.

If I run a startup, and one of my employees is making other employees uncomfortable, and he keeps getting accused of harassing other employees, and is generally just making some of my best engineers unhappy, hurting productivity, and ruining our carefully constructed culture... ...I can fire him. I mean, obviously I need to go through the proper HR procedures, follow local employment law, respect the terms of his con…

>...I can fire him. I mean, obviously I need to go through the proper HR procedures, follow local employment law, respect the terms of his contract, etc., but I have no obligation to keep him employed if I think he's a net negative to my company. Arguably I have an obligation to not keep him employed. And I certainly have no requirement to wait until he has been convicted of a crime; it's not even clear any of the above is a crime.

This would be a valid comparison if the company in question were receiving massive amounts of federal funding, in which case, I would say yes the accused _does_ have a reasonable expectation of fair treatment. Why? Well the accused is also paying for the regulatory system in question.

It's not really possible to deny that these universities receive "massive amounts of federal funding" either, considering that receiving federal funding is the explicit motivation of performing these title IX tribunals in the first place.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#144

Post by mirimir »

gm678 wrote: post #117
mirimir wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying. But the "second sexual revolution" actually happened in the 80s-90s. I remember it distinctly. You always paused, and clearly asked, at each stage. But this is different. Now there is no such thing as "consent". Or rather, consent can be withdrawn retroactively . I've never been accused of rape, as far as I know. But many years ago, one girlfriend told me that she had thought I was wealthy.…

Could you show me an example of modern feminists trying to suggest that consent can be withdrawn retroactively? I find your argument that people can now be credibly accused of rape because their partner misjudged their wealth to be unrealistic and in bad faith, and I have not seen any evidence for it.

From TFA, which I quoted in another subthread:

> As Catharine Mackinnon, the progenitor of the school of feminism from which this movement proceeds, once put it, "Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated."

Maybe she's not a "modern feminist". But that's the sense I get from TFA about current policies.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#145

Post by mirimir »

gm678 wrote: post #120
mirimir wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any direct (or indirect) experience. So what happens now if a man accuses a woman of "raping" him? I'm guessing that he'd be ignored. And I don't think the standards will become gender-neutral any faster than they'll become just. I do wonder, though, whether young men are becoming more cautious about who they have sex with. And if there's any way to protect oneself against future rape accusations. Perhap…

" So what happens now if a man accuses a woman of "raping" him? I'm guessing that he'd be ignored. " I do think there is currently a double standard, and I think that misogyny and the view of women as "passive" participants in sex contributes to that. The CDC estimates that 1 in 71 men will be raped in their lifetime, and an analysis by Scientific American found that 79 percent of male victims of rape reported it to…

Regarding strategy, I was suggesting that the man file a Title IX complaint before the woman does, just in case.

It could also be pursued as a consciousness-raising campaign.

And what you say about avoiding what you "can't defend later" seems disingenuous. Because from TFA, I gather that there's typically no mechanism for making a defense.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#146

Post by closeparen »

wutbrodo wrote: post #9
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #3

>But after a lifetime in service of the feminist cause, she took on the case of a friend whose son she came to believe had been wrongly convicted of rape and won his acquittal on appeal. This is one of the big ways in which sexism is a much more tractable problem than racism and less potentially explosive. Women and men both have members of the opposite sex that they genuinely love. I have heard that fathers with dau…

Exactly, racism is much more of a fully-stable equilibrium than sexism, since full dehumanization of the other sex is always going to be impossible, if only due to adjacency. And adjacency can be critical to rights movements: one of the big successes of the gay rights movement was combating the stereotype of evil deviants through a strategy of positioning gay people as neighbors, brothers, sons, etc; regular people w…

> full dehumanization of the other sex is always going to be impossible, if only due to adjacency

No surprise, then, that it shows up in the segment of men who are not "adjacent" to any women.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#147

Post by DoreenMichele »

I don't know how we get there. I'm incredibly frustrated at how much doors remain shut in my face and I can't get traction, real respect and the money that goes with it.

But after a lifetime of sorting my baggage in the aftermath of sexual abuse and rape, I'm clear that one thing that must happen is women need public lives on par with what men have and women need career options and earned income on par with men.

A whole lot of this BS is rooted in the idea that a woman's sexuality is a prize to be won by an "eligible" male -- ie a man who earns enough to take care of her. There is a subtext of ownership there.

Which is part of what drives women to claim rape after a drunken hook up: It protects their perceived purity in a world where women are still not entitled to take ownership of their own sexuality and must hoard its use and preserve its value to merit future ownership by some worthy man.

Ie some man who makes enough money.

It's a terrible societal poison that seeps insidiously into far too many bedrooms.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#148

Post by neohaven »

closeparen wrote: post #146
wutbrodo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, racism is much more of a fully-stable equilibrium than sexism, since full dehumanization of the other sex is always going to be impossible, if only due to adjacency. And adjacency can be critical to rights movements: one of the big successes of the gay rights movement was combating the stereotype of evil deviants through a strategy of positioning gay people as neighbors, brothers, sons, etc; regular people w…

> full dehumanization of the other sex is always going to be impossible, if only due to adjacency No surprise, then, that it shows up in the segment of men who are not "adjacent" to any women.

Nor is it a surprise that it shows up in any segment of children not exposed to healthy male influences. That knife cuts both ways.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#149

Post by Lazare »

klipt wrote: post #75
Lazare wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I run a startup, and one of my employees is making other employees uncomfortable, and he keeps getting accused of harassing other employees, and is generally just making some of my best engineers unhappy, hurting productivity, and ruining our carefully constructed culture... ...I can fire him. I mean, obviously I need to go through the proper HR procedures, follow local employment law, respect the terms of his con…

In the workplace dating coworkers is generally frowned upon. At a university, dating other students is so commonplace that a large portion of people meet their spouses that way. Title IX may want to treat dating at universities with the same disdain as in the workplace, but it's not going to be an easy cultural shift.

> In the workplace dating coworkers is generally frowned upon.

And at a restaurant, being in a relationship with a fellow patron is quite common. Similarly, no legal or cultural ban against dating your room mate when you rent a house (much to the relief of married couples everywhere).

Students are (mostly) not employees of the university, but they are customers of educational services and (quite often) tenants. A university has a number of relationships to students, and a number of responsibilities, both to the (alleged) predators and to the larger student body.

I mentioned a startup situation in the hopes it would seem relevant to many here (surely we've all had at least one co-worker that was disruptive?), but trying to view this purely through the lens of employment law will get you nowhere.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#150

Post by duxup »

jancsika wrote: post #85

How in the world is the conversation not about the lack of ethics of the teachers and faculty who agree to serve as the amateur judges/questioners in these tribunals? Hello, I spent a decade of my life learning just how difficult it is to become an expert in my very narrow field. In fact I spend most of my time helping undergrads refine their rank speculation into tractable problems to potentially guide them to a dee…

At Baylor a former investigator described believing that because it was a religious school they expected there wouldn't be much for them to do.

I have to wonder how much life experience someone has who thinks that...

At a large public institution near me they had some lawyers review their processes.

The resulting suggestions were pretty shocking. Things like, educating the accused as to what the process even was. Notifying the accused that there was an appeal (they apparently didn't do that all the time). Allowing all parties legal representation. And more detailed recording of testimony, mostly due to cases that involved concerns from accused students that their testimony that was recorded was inaccurate and had only been recorded by hand written notes taken by another student. In some cases their efforts to correct what they said seemed to be interpreted as lying... because it conflicted with the original notes (but not any factual conflict).

It is mind boggling that any of the suggestions were needed.

In the meantime the folks running the department investigating the reports are also tasked with writing the rules, investigating, judging....and on their own time advocating for various policies surrounding sexual assault.

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