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America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

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Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#41

Post by joe_the_user »

Fellshard wrote: post #6
mieseratte wrote: post #4

For the life of me I don’t understand why government funded institutions run their own tribunals. Send it through the proper court system, if the accused is guilty you can expel them cleanly.

My guess is that it enables them to spin up their own experimental judicial systems that they believe should exist. To them, relegating to proper courts would be giving up their stake in determining how things 'ought to be'. Consider, for example, the premise of 'rape culture' which was popularized a few years ago. If such a claim concerning culture is to be made, then it implies the judicial systems external to the…

That ridiculous claims smacks of conspiracy theory.

Any number of institutions have their own committees to judge bad behavior - civil courts of all sorts multiply in a bureaucratic society and colleges just one example of a bureaucracy and one strongly connected to many others in this society.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#42

Post by SuoDuanDao »

drewrv wrote: post #34
bhk wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They sit in judgment of "collegiate sex" to determine which acts are "sexual assault". Remember presumption of innocence?

Sure thing. But my point is that, if I steal a car and get caught we're not "adjudicating cars". I'm presumed innocent, but the crime of stealing cars isn't ever conflated with regular driving around.

Sure, but try and prove you never crossed the median or went over the speed limit. Now add an environment where your passengers are pressured to report you if they suspect you may have violated a rule of the road, and you have the sex life of your typical college student.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#43

Post by aidenn0 »

mc32 wrote: post #17
sneak wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that it is reasonable to expel people (and, indeed, to want to expel people) with a much much lower burden of proof than would be required to lock them in a cage. There absolutely should be a different standard for “can continue to be in this school” and “can continue to walk down the public sidewalk”, and also decided by different people.

At the same time someone’s standing shouldn’t be in danger due to a malicious accusation. This is a really hard problem because you want victims to be helped and not have to go through a grueling process for something they didn’t bring upon themselves, but simultaneously you don’t want to enable false accusations which would put undue burden on someone who didn’t bring that upon themselves either.

A malicious accusation always puts ones standing in danger. If I were to accuse you of just about any crime, your odds of being wrongfully convicted of that crime go up, even if just a little. If I get this claim published widely enough, you will have a harder time finding a job, even if it the claim later proven false.

The question at hand is whether or not things have gone too far.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#44

Post by linksnapzz »

rayiner wrote: post #38

Meh. This is the second sexual revolution. The first go around resulted in rules and around causal sex in college that favor men and encode male expectations. Women are making clear that those rules don’t work for them and are demanding a change. If you don’t push the line on consent you have nothing to worry about.

If you have nothing to hide, then you also have nothing to worry about w.r.t, say, increased police surveillance.

Funny how that works...

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#45

Post by hirundo »

mikedilger wrote: post #25

This is a very difficult issue. Most sexual assaults happen in private, so there is rarely any evidence a victim can use to convict the perpetrator. Most accusations are real, but some are questionable as to whether a crime was committed, and some accusations are false. Given there is almost never any evidence, victims are at a severe disadvantage in the innocent until proven guilty paradigm. I can understand why som…

Can you at least consider yourself outside of the camp that considers it to be "rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated”, and feels no need for standard due process measures in campus sexual assault judgments?

What would be the equivalent extremities of the opposite camp? I'm not hearing from many opponents that sexual assault should be tolerated. It's more common to hear that they should be immediately escalated to law enforcement.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#46

Post by aidenn0 »

drewrv wrote: post #34
bhk wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They sit in judgment of "collegiate sex" to determine which acts are "sexual assault". Remember presumption of innocence?

Sure thing. But my point is that, if I steal a car and get caught we're not "adjudicating cars". I'm presumed innocent, but the crime of stealing cars isn't ever conflated with regular driving around.

If you get pulled over driving a friend's car and the cop asks you to prove that your friend loaned it to you, it's relatively parallel.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#47

Post by alexithym »

rayiner wrote: post #38

Meh. This is the second sexual revolution. The first go around resulted in rules and around causal sex in college that favor men and encode male expectations. Women are making clear that those rules don’t work for them and are demanding a change. If you don’t push the line on consent you have nothing to worry about.

> If you don't push the line on consent you have nothing to worry about.

The issue with this position is that it assumes a defined line of consent which is generally shared by both parties. However, one of the main theses of the article was that the very definition of consent itself can been so radically altered as to make this a strong assumption. For example, one definition of rape presented in the article ("Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated") doesn't care at all about whether the woman consented, verbally or otherwise.

Anyways, that doesn't matter. The reform described by the article is for the purposes of a more fair investigative process. Not one tilted towards the accuser, not one tilted towards the victim, but a fair process. Would you not also agree that a fair process is a desirable goal for any society?

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#48

Post by mc32 »

aidenn0 wrote: post #43
mc32 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same time someone’s standing shouldn’t be in danger due to a malicious accusation. This is a really hard problem because you want victims to be helped and not have to go through a grueling process for something they didn’t bring upon themselves, but simultaneously you don’t want to enable false accusations which would put undue burden on someone who didn’t bring that upon themselves either.

A malicious accusation always puts ones standing in danger. If I were to accuse you of just about any crime, your odds of being wrongfully convicted of that crime go up, even if just a little. If I get this claim published widely enough, you will have a harder time finding a job, even if it the claim later proven false. The question at hand is whether or not things have gone too far.

Agree. With social media it’s amplified and even opinions can have detrimental effects on people’s standing.

Asking whether it has gone too far is like asking if someone died too much. This problem currently has no good solution -barring a true “lie detector”, but even that is insufficient because people can believe things that didn’t happen as they recall, etc., you’d need something more like a “reconstruct the scenario do we the jury can interpret”

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#49

Post by jseliger »

mikedilger wrote: post #25

This is a very difficult issue. Most sexual assaults happen in private, so there is rarely any evidence a victim can use to convict the perpetrator. Most accusations are real, but some are questionable as to whether a crime was committed, and some accusations are false. Given there is almost never any evidence, victims are at a severe disadvantage in the innocent until proven guilty paradigm. I can understand why som…

"Innocent until proven guilty" and the need for evidence prior to an assumption of being guilty are not difficult issues.

Re: America’s New Sex Bureaucracy

#50

Post by gregimba »

ccday wrote: post #27
drewrv wrote: post #15

The way this article conflates sex with sexual assault really creeps me out. The first sentence states: Four feminist law professors at Harvard Law School have been telling some alarming truths about the tribunals that have been adjudicating collegiate sex for the past five years. No tribunals "adjudicate collegiate sex". They adjudicate sexual assault.

One of the professors quoted in the article suggests otherwise: > The system promulgated a definition of sexual misconduct so expansive that it “plausibly covers almost all sex students are having today,” as Gersen wrote in an article in the California Law Review.

The standard at my college was any alcoholic consumption meant you could no longer consent. If I had a beer and had sex with my girlfriend it was considered sexual misconduct under the definition of consent the school provided.
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