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Will there ever be a cure for chronic pain?

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Re: Will there ever be a cure for chronic pain?

#111

Post by cpncrunch »

rjurney wrote: post #50

Acute pain is a symptom. Chronic pain is a disease. Most chronic pain is not directly connected with a root cause. Spinal MRIs for example are poor predictors of spinal pain. It is an upmodulation of pain sensation in the peripheral nervous system/brain stem. It isn't mental and it isn't psychosomatic - it is very real. And you can't just ignore it - although there are techniques in pain psychology that help. This is…

Psychosomatic == real. If your heart rate increases when you are frightened, is that imaginary?

While some research shows changes in the brainstem, fMRI shows differences in blood flow in various parts of the brain associated with processing emotions. Right now we don't have a definitive answer as to what causes chronic pain. But we do know for certain that the parts of the brain dealing with pain are also involved in emotional processing.

It's actually very easy to demonstrate to yourself that pain can be psychosomatic. If you're riding your bike and imagine falling off, you will experience real pain. (At least, it happens for me, and I assume I'm not the only person who that happens to).

Here is an interesting fMRI study looking at the effects of pain processing in both fibromyalgia patients and healthy participants:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1016/j.ejpain.200...

Re: Will there ever be a cure for chronic pain?

#112

Post by GordonS »

cpncrunch wrote: post #110
GordonS wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not true to say there is no evidence[0-9]. The Cochrane review[10] that includes the PACE trial has also been beset with complaints about its methodology[11]. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21334061/ [1] https://huisartsvink.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/severely-af... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19521443/ [3] https://huisartsvink.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/bringsli-20... [4] https://huisarts…

While it's true that patient surveys generally report worsening after GET, that isn't quite the same standard of evidence as a Cochrane review. The Cochrane review had similar conclusions in 2004, long before PACE [1]. A detailed survey by Action 4 ME found that of patients who reported undergoing GET: "11 Had NO professional input (had they therefore paced themselves ?) – mostly with positive outcomes 6 Were supervi…

We could argue back and forth in perpetuity about the quality of both the Cochrane review (for example, there are claims that their diagnostic criteria for even having CFS were not good enough) and the data against GET :)

My point was simply that there does exist a large body of evidence supporting my original comment, even if there is also evidence against it.

Re: Will there ever be a cure for chronic pain?

#113

Post by cpncrunch »

GordonS wrote: post #112
cpncrunch wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's true that patient surveys generally report worsening after GET, that isn't quite the same standard of evidence as a Cochrane review. The Cochrane review had similar conclusions in 2004, long before PACE [1]. A detailed survey by Action 4 ME found that of patients who reported undergoing GET: "11 Had NO professional input (had they therefore paced themselves ?) – mostly with positive outcomes 6 Were supervi…

We could argue back and forth in perpetuity about the quality of both the Cochrane review (for example, there are claims that their diagnostic criteria for even having CFS were not good enough) and the data against GET :) My point was simply that there does exist a large body of evidence supporting my original comment, even if there is also evidence against it.

Wordpress pages and patient surveys are hardly a "large body of evidence".

Re: Will there ever be a cure for chronic pain?

#114

Post by GordonS »

cpncrunch wrote: post #113
GordonS wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could argue back and forth in perpetuity about the quality of both the Cochrane review (for example, there are claims that their diagnostic criteria for even having CFS were not good enough) and the data against GET :) My point was simply that there does exist a large body of evidence supporting my original comment, even if there is also evidence against it.

Wordpress pages and patient surveys are hardly a "large body of evidence".

We're descending into personal insults now?

That's my queue to bid you adieu

Re: Will there ever be a cure for chronic pain?

#115

Post by cpncrunch »

GordonS wrote: post #114
cpncrunch wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wordpress pages and patient surveys are hardly a "large body of evidence".

We're descending into personal insults now? That's my queue to bid you adieu

It wasn't intended as in insult, but I apologise and have edited my comment to remove that part.

Re: Will there ever be a cure for chronic pain?

#116

Post by sdegutis »

crispinb wrote: post #68
sdegutis wrote: post #20

Although there is value in trying to removing pain when doing so would be ethical, this thread mentions many situations where there is pain but no possibility yet of removing or reducing it. In these cases, a long-term general solution is to continue research on these situations. But the short-term solution per person is to learn the meaning and value of suffering. It is frowned upon in intellectual forums to discuss…

> a humble trust that Jesus came into this world to suffer and die for our sake 'humble trust' is a genuinely useful attitude to have towards reality, but impossible to achieve towards a description of the world one does not believe to be true. You have things backward - if you genuinely intend your prescription to be helpful you need first to offer your readers reasons to believe your specific supernatural claims to…

There is an overabundant proof that the Catholic Church's teachings are true. The only reason people do not believe is because they do not want to. They choose to believe logical fallacies and pretend it's logically consistent rather than believe the truth.

Re: Will there ever be a cure for chronic pain?

#117

Post by sdegutis »

ozzmotik wrote: post #104
sdegutis wrote: post #20

Although there is value in trying to removing pain when doing so would be ethical, this thread mentions many situations where there is pain but no possibility yet of removing or reducing it. In these cases, a long-term general solution is to continue research on these situations. But the short-term solution per person is to learn the meaning and value of suffering. It is frowned upon in intellectual forums to discuss…

i certainly appreciate what you have to say, but as a somewhat ardent atheist i contend entirely the idea that you absolutely have to understand and trust that Jesus came to suffer and die for our sake in order to get started on the right path, if only because there are several other religions across the world with their own disparate belief systems that have nothing to do with Jesus and im pretty sure some of those…

This is the most common cop-out of our day, and it's one I also used for many decades. But it is an intellectual cop-out. There is significantly more proof for Jesus's claims as represented by the Catholic Church than for any other religious beliefs. The only reason people do not believe it is because, at least deep down, they do not want to.

Re: Will there ever be a cure for chronic pain?

#118

Post by sdegutis »

tasty_freeze wrote: post #84
searine wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus died on the cross in six hours. Let's see jesus crush a few vertebrae and live disabled for 40 years without pain meds, and then talk about suffering. Like I get it. Religion does help many, and it can take you away from pain, but suffering is real and don't shortchange people's misery who are dealing with it.

I was going to make a similar comment, so I'll tag on here. Jesus was supposedly crucified for a few hours, which would be terrible, but he also knew what was waiting him, and that he would be remembered and revered. In contrast, my sister suffered through multiple rounds of chemo, then a divorce by a husband who was jealous that she was "getting all the attention". The cancer spread to her brain and spine and lungs,…

You assume you know just how much (or how "little") Jesus suffered, based on a physical description. I felt the same way for a few years. But his was physical, spiritual, emotional, mental, all at once, for almost a full day straight, and intensified beyond what you can imagine. He barely showed any typical signs, like screaming out in pain or cursing people, because he is all-powerful, and those come from a lack of power. But there are an abundance of signs that he suffered far more than an ordinary crucifixion, which was already excruciating by today's standards - in fact that's where the word comes from.

Re: Will there ever be a cure for chronic pain?

#119

Post by bluewater »

nate wrote: post #82
faissaloo wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like your body was having trouble making collagen

Oh! That's interesting. Sure does sound like that. Thanks for the heads up! Huh. Glad I posted this.

Wow, great comment Nate that was rewarded with some equally eye opening advice for you to look into. I’d like to echo your message of some type of elimination diet being a valuable experience for anyone. I did the Whole 30 as well and it truly is amazing to discover how what you eat can have such a profound effect on how you feel. As I write that it seems so silly and obvious but until you really get a “reset” it’s easy to get used to feeling pretty average to lousy.

Re: Will there ever be a cure for chronic pain?

#120

Post by ozzmotik »

sdegutis wrote: post #117
ozzmotik wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i certainly appreciate what you have to say, but as a somewhat ardent atheist i contend entirely the idea that you absolutely have to understand and trust that Jesus came to suffer and die for our sake in order to get started on the right path, if only because there are several other religions across the world with their own disparate belief systems that have nothing to do with Jesus and im pretty sure some of those…

This is the most common cop-out of our day, and it's one I also used for many decades. But it is an intellectual cop-out. There is significantly more proof for Jesus's claims as represented by the Catholic Church than for any other religious beliefs. The only reason people do not believe it is because, at least deep down, they do not want to.

is there something wrong with not believing because you don't want to? and what if the reason you don't want to is because you define belief as something that requires evidence in order to practice? i really don't appreciate what you're doing here. I was trying to simply say that everyone has their own path in life, but instead of trying to meet me halfway and understand that, you're telling me that there is an over abundance of evidence for the existence of Jesus (which I will agree, there probably was a guy named Jesus, but hell there were probably a lot and the character of the Christ was most likely a syncretic mix of all of them) compared to that of other religions, but that being said i clearly mentioned that I am an atheist, so the supposed lack of evidence of other religions (which I personally believe doesn't really matter because since when was religion entirely evidence based anyway? faith is the art of believing that which you have no evidence for!) doesn't really change anything in my case. I was more trying to defend other people that you were isolating by making such a claim, and by extension, stress the fact that there is no absolute guarantee that if one submits to Jesus that one will absolutely have a better life. I've met plenty of people who have done so who may pretend to have a better life on the surface but really just have an invisible guy in the sky to point to and say "well this must be your plan so who am I to question it?"

anyway, i respect your right to believe what you want, but i think you're living in a really small bubble if you think that Christianity, and specifically the Catholic sect thereof, is the only way to find happiness and comfort in life. it's sorta poisoning the well by outright assuming some specific conclusion is already true and then arguing based on that conclusion without providing evidence to support it. if you have sufficient empirical evidence, maybe you should lead with that rather than suggesting that there is more of it than other religions. burden of proof, etc.

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