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Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

spiegel.de

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Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#91

Post by [deleted] »

mcv wrote: post #55
hos234 wrote: post #3

As membership declines, just wondering what happens to all the cash the Churches are sitting on, from property, to art, to chuch tax collections. Going to be interesting to see what the next (younger) gen of church leaders do with it...maybe they need an innovation center to modernize the useful aspects of religion.

Do churches have so much money? Young churches are frequently short on money (which they need primarily to rent a building and to hire a preacher). Older churches have lots of buildings, but are rarely swimming in cash these days.

[deleted]

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#92

Post by rpmisms »

keiferski wrote: post #10

I would love to see old monasteries turned into various kinds of retreats. The idea of spending a week or a month with no electronics, all my meals prepared, and quiet time to just read, study and think sounds fantastic.

That's... not how a monastery works. If you'd like to experience it, go to a Russian Orthodox monastery and ask to stay for a few days. You'll be asked to do chores to help keep the monastery running, spend several hours of each day listening to incredible choral music, and come away feeling like you just spent time in a different world.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#93

Post by twic »

lukebuehler wrote: post #80

Great article, but I think it misses one key aspect of why monasteries are dying out: the lack of lively church communities which used to encourage dedicated people to join the monastic life. Monasteries don't exist in a vacuum, they have an intricate interdependency with normal parishes of families and, more generally, people "in the world." It should not really be the responsibility of monastics to do public relati…

Wasn't it the case that a lot of second sons became monks because they weren't going to inherit the family title/land/business/farm, and they had to find some way to survive? For the upper classes, monasteries were replaced by militaries, when second sons could go off and have adventures, and perhaps win a fortune of their own. For everyone else, the advent of wage economies did the job.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#94

Post by dr_dshiv »

lukebuehler wrote: post #87
dr_dshiv wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I try to convert you? Great! Thanks for your implied consent. Here goes: The "One" god of Christianity comes more from Neoplatonism than Judaism. The Neoplatonic Oneness, which was washed out in various times in Christian history, is fully commensurable with contemporary science. Oneness can be experienced as the common mystical experience of "we are all one, man!" But for Neoplatonists, it only made sense that t…

Not bad, but the Alexandrian tradition was not the only way to interpret Christianity. The idea that Christianity's understanding of God's oneness was merely borrowed from Neoplatonism is an old cliche, but it leaves too much out. Without going into this too much, I would say that the early Christian thinkers accepted the Platonic and Neoplatonic problem of trying to answer how the one related to the many, or how it…

Right, definitely not claiming this is the only way to interpret christianity. But, the design constraints are: how to interpret christianity in a manner that is commensurable with modern science and ancient traditions?

Hence...

Note that there is no need to find the original interpretation (impossible), only an early, valid, and widespread interpretation. And whatever it is, it should provide spiritual meaning AND not conflict with empirical reality.

I would not treat Athanasius kindly, considering his role in the Arian heresy. But I'll check out his work.

Also, I don't mean to claim that Christianity "merely borrowed". Christian thought had a huge influence on Neoplatonism (Origen and Plotinus were schoolmates). I'm only saying that interpreting Christianity without Platonism is really missing out. (Platonism was actively removed from later Christianity, as it was seen as pagan.)

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#95

Post by rpmisms »

For all those in this thread talking about monasteries without having ever been in one, please try the experience. If there's an Orthodox monastery near you, try seeing if you can stay for a few days. They generally aren't rich by any stretch of the imagination, but even staying for a few days and following the lifestyle will give you insight into why the monastic life is a valuable and valid choice in our increasingly chaotic and bombastic society.

The peace you feel when in one and the sinking feeling going back into "the world" are both experiences everyone should have.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#96

Post by BAReF00t »

lukebuehler wrote: post #80

Great article, but I think it misses one key aspect of why monasteries are dying out: the lack of lively church communities which used to encourage dedicated people to join the monastic life. Monasteries don't exist in a vacuum, they have an intricate interdependency with normal parishes of families and, more generally, people "in the world." It should not really be the responsibility of monastics to do public relati…

You are thinking from a US perspective though.

Europe, and especially the east and north, is nearly cured from religion. Cold air and higher education keep people level-headed and reduce the need to invent comforting fantasies to deal with reality.

And when people in Germany say they are ”religious“ by German standards, they are not at all actually religious, e.g. by US or Saudi Arabia or Israel standards. It’s merely a cultural residue they were born into. That actually existed way before Abrahamic religions spread to Germany. They only ever enter a church for a birth (sometimes), marriage (often) or death (usually). East Germany is pretty much 100% free of religion. And Berlin is the least religious place in Europe. (Unless you count veganism. ;)

We prefer to concern us with things, that are actually observably real and hence useful.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#97

Post by twic »

hunta2097 wrote: post #7
hos234 wrote: post #3

As membership declines, just wondering what happens to all the cash the Churches are sitting on, from property, to art, to chuch tax collections. Going to be interesting to see what the next (younger) gen of church leaders do with it...maybe they need an innovation center to modernize the useful aspects of religion.

Europe is in a post-christianity phase, it's going to be interesting. I'm guessing they would have no choice but to sell off property and land to pay their clergy? In the UK lots of churches have either been converted to housing or commercial venues. It's really weird going to a kid's play center in an impressive old church but it happens: https://twitter.com/RainbowFunTqy

There's also a business of subletting church buildings to other churches. I once wandered into St Dunstan in the West, just off Fleet Street in London, and found that there was a Romanian orthodox service in full swing.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#98

Post by giardini »

hos234 wrote: post #3

As membership declines, just wondering what happens to all the cash the Churches are sitting on, from property, to art, to chuch tax collections. Going to be interesting to see what the next (younger) gen of church leaders do with it...maybe they need an innovation center to modernize the useful aspects of religion.

Turn them into bed-and-breakfast inns or hotels. Hire some Indians to help (there's a caste that specializes in maintaining hotels/inns/etc. and are very good at it) if necessary. Get the monastery off the public dole if possible.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#100

Post by neuronic »

_pmf_ wrote: post #99

Mosques are thriving.

And this is bad how?

I live in a German population center with many many mosques and it affects me in exactly zero ways. I know _no one_ who regularly visits a mosque, let alone trying to convince others to join.

We have religious freedom in our constitution. Aside from some stupidly minor exceptions, Germans aren't somehow converting to Islam. They are leaving religion in general.

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