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Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

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Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#11

Post by keiferski »

hunta2097 wrote: post #7
hos234 wrote: post #3

As membership declines, just wondering what happens to all the cash the Churches are sitting on, from property, to art, to chuch tax collections. Going to be interesting to see what the next (younger) gen of church leaders do with it...maybe they need an innovation center to modernize the useful aspects of religion.

Europe is in a post-christianity phase, it's going to be interesting. I'm guessing they would have no choice but to sell off property and land to pay their clergy? In the UK lots of churches have either been converted to housing or commercial venues. It's really weird going to a kid's play center in an impressive old church but it happens: https://twitter.com/RainbowFunTqy

Pittsburgh has quite a few former churches that are now bars, breweries, music venues, or other cultural centers. Here's a popular one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_Brew_Works

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#12

Post by xxxpupugo »

> Religious orders in Germany are disappearing because so few people want to dedicate their entire lives to God anymore

Is there anything weird about this? Entire life is a pretty hefty price to pay, what needs to be changed is religion itself, if it wants to find more new believers to keep itself from disappearing.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#13

Post by keiferski »

avar wrote: post #9
skissane wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But will the membership decline continue in the long-run? Within the Catholic church, there is a traditionalist/conservative minority, who are growing basically through having a high birth rate – rejecting contraception and pre-marital sex, they tend to marry young and have lots of kids. Not all of those kids will follow in their parents' footsteps, but the majority of them probably will. Though these conservatives/t…

Europe has entire countries where pretty much 100% of the population were extremist Catholic zealots with huge families by modern standards just a couple of hundred years ago. Today those countries have some of the lowest birth rates in Europe, e.g. Spain and Italy[1] pretty much trail the pack. The data suggests that your hypothesis is false. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_U...

The above commenter was referencing specific populations, not entire countries. A good comparable example might be Orthodox Jews, which are projected to become the majority of the Jewish population in a short period of time (because of high birth rates, among other reasons.) However I'm not sure if the equivalent Christian groups are as prevalent in Europe.

High birth rates are an important aspect of Orthodox demographics: They are the most reproductive of all Jews, and ultra-Orthodox communities have some of the highest rates in the world, with 6 children per an average household. Non-existent levels of intermarriage (unlike some liberal Jewish denominations, Orthodoxy vehemently opposes the phenomenon) also contribute to their growing share in the world's Jewish population. While American Orthodox are but 10% of all Jews, among children, their share rises immensely: An estimated 61% of Jewish children in New York belong to Orthodox households, 49% to ultra-Orthodox. Similar patterns are observed in Britain and other countries. With present trends sustained, Orthodox Jews are projected to numerically dominate British Jewry by 2031, and American Jewry by 2058.

However, their growth is balanced by large numbers of members leaving their communities and observant lifestyle. Among the 2013 PEW respondents, 17% of those under 30 who were raised Orthodox disaffiliated (in earlier generations, this trend was far more prevalent, and 77% of those over 65 left). It is estimated that over 20% of those raised religious Zionist in Israel disaffiliate, and greater numbers adopt a secularized lifestyle and define themselves as "living on the spectrum (of religion)". Loose observance among young adults is common even when they retain formal affiliation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Judaism#Demographics

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#14

Post by tastroder »

skissane wrote: post #8
hos234 wrote: post #3

As membership declines, just wondering what happens to all the cash the Churches are sitting on, from property, to art, to chuch tax collections. Going to be interesting to see what the next (younger) gen of church leaders do with it...maybe they need an innovation center to modernize the useful aspects of religion.

But will the membership decline continue in the long-run? Within the Catholic church, there is a traditionalist/conservative minority, who are growing basically through having a high birth rate – rejecting contraception and pre-marital sex, they tend to marry young and have lots of kids. Not all of those kids will follow in their parents' footsteps, but the majority of them probably will. Though these conservatives/t…

I might not get the point you're making but isn't that conflating religious membership in general with going into a monestary too much, the latter usually being bound by celibacy in catholicism?

Projections in pop-culture religious affiliation seem to make the argument of a christian fundamental majority kind of doubtful, even in the long run, there's still plenty of people in the church. Even though I'd guess a large part of those only visit church on christmas and maybe easter. Source: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/701006/umfrag...

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#15

Post by dschuetz »

Is there any possible modern approach to a traditional catholic monastery? I think, they are dying out, because of their rigid traditions which rarely make sense in our modern world anymore. The idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to introspection and philosophy, and serving the monastery with its inhabitants, no matter what religion or philosophy. Why are they having so much trouble to keep up with changes? They just accept the changes without adapting? Why?

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#16

Post by geowwy »

avar wrote: post #9
skissane wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But will the membership decline continue in the long-run? Within the Catholic church, there is a traditionalist/conservative minority, who are growing basically through having a high birth rate – rejecting contraception and pre-marital sex, they tend to marry young and have lots of kids. Not all of those kids will follow in their parents' footsteps, but the majority of them probably will. Though these conservatives/t…

Europe has entire countries where pretty much 100% of the population were extremist Catholic zealots with huge families by modern standards just a couple of hundred years ago. Today those countries have some of the lowest birth rates in Europe, e.g. Spain and Italy[1] pretty much trail the pack. The data suggests that your hypothesis is false. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_U...

The situation is very different. What @skissane says makes sense.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#17

Post by hos234 »

skissane wrote: post #8
hos234 wrote: post #3

As membership declines, just wondering what happens to all the cash the Churches are sitting on, from property, to art, to chuch tax collections. Going to be interesting to see what the next (younger) gen of church leaders do with it...maybe they need an innovation center to modernize the useful aspects of religion.

But will the membership decline continue in the long-run? Within the Catholic church, there is a traditionalist/conservative minority, who are growing basically through having a high birth rate – rejecting contraception and pre-marital sex, they tend to marry young and have lots of kids. Not all of those kids will follow in their parents' footsteps, but the majority of them probably will. Though these conservatives/t…

It's an interesting point. If this comes to pass, this conservative growing minority will have access to tens of Billions (according to Google).

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#18

Post by geowwy »

skissane wrote: post #8
hos234 wrote: post #3

As membership declines, just wondering what happens to all the cash the Churches are sitting on, from property, to art, to chuch tax collections. Going to be interesting to see what the next (younger) gen of church leaders do with it...maybe they need an innovation center to modernize the useful aspects of religion.

But will the membership decline continue in the long-run? Within the Catholic church, there is a traditionalist/conservative minority, who are growing basically through having a high birth rate – rejecting contraception and pre-marital sex, they tend to marry young and have lots of kids. Not all of those kids will follow in their parents' footsteps, but the majority of them probably will. Though these conservatives/t…

Not sure why you're being downvoted. It's definitely plausible that Traditionalist Catholics will become the majority of practicing Catholics, as well as a small but growing minority in Europe.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#19

Post by bakuninsbart »

xxxpupugo wrote: post #12

> Religious orders in Germany are disappearing because so few people want to dedicate their entire lives to God anymore Is there anything weird about this? Entire life is a pretty hefty price to pay, what needs to be changed is religion itself, if it wants to find more new believers to keep itself from disappearing.

I honestly think the acceptance of homosexuality in the mainstream is having a huge influence. A hundred years ago when society would tell you that what you want to do is wrong - and you might even believe it yourself - then choosing a life as a priest or monk was a serious alternative. - You would have a way to paradise and nobody would question you not marrying.

It is of course complete conjecture, although more and more info is coming out on the "homosexual lobby" in the Vatican.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#20

Post by skissane »

tastroder wrote: post #14
skissane wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But will the membership decline continue in the long-run? Within the Catholic church, there is a traditionalist/conservative minority, who are growing basically through having a high birth rate – rejecting contraception and pre-marital sex, they tend to marry young and have lots of kids. Not all of those kids will follow in their parents' footsteps, but the majority of them probably will. Though these conservatives/t…

I might not get the point you're making but isn't that conflating religious membership in general with going into a monestary too much, the latter usually being bound by celibacy in catholicism? Projections in pop-culture religious affiliation seem to make the argument of a christian fundamental majority kind of doubtful, even in the long run, there's still plenty of people in the church. Even though I'd guess a larg…

> I might not get the point you're making but isn't that conflating religious membership in general with going into a monestary too much, the latter usually being bound by celibacy in catholicism?

There is a connection: people who have five, six, seven kids, tend to be less upset when one or two of those children chooses a celibate lifestyle (like a monastery), than parents with only one or two children tend to be. In the later case, there can be a great reduction in the odds of having grandchildren (and their number); the reduction in the former case is more modest.

Also, traditionalist Catholics tend to value celibacy, whereas Catholics at the more secular/progressive end tend to view it as a relic of a bygone age. So if Catholicism became majority traditional, the attitude of the "average" Catholic towards celibate religious orders may become much more positive, and their membership might experience a rebound.

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