Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul • Hacker News Board

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#91

Post by gpm » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 10:19 PM UTC

didericis wrote: post #70

A tainted, unregulated THC product killed people. That is bad. That does not mean we should immediately ban all vaping devices. There should be long term studies done on devices and juices in order to determine health effects, and there should be audits on vape juice manufacturers to make sure they aren’t putting really bad stuff in them. I don’t understand the moral panic. Marketing nicotine products to kids may be…

Non THC vapes have at the very least put people in intensive care, if not killed people.

It's far premature to try and claim the lack of any health effects from any type of vapes, they just haven't existed long enough.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/vaping-london-1.5292161

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#92

Post by ozzmotik » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 10:24 PM UTC

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #59

dmix wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Juul seems to have higher nicotine content than most of the traditional vaping juices. Even the new reusable nicotine salt devices. It's also pretty gross and strong by comparison IMO. But I guess it's for people who just stopped smoking cigarettes which is similarly harsh whenever I try them now.

It's a nicotine salt so it's stronger but less harsh on your throught. A 50mgml nicotine salt concentration ends up being as 'strong' as ~28mg/ml nicotine freebase (since the salt makes up ~45% of the molar weight) but has the throat hit of like a 12mg/ml nicotine freebase. The volume held in the device & volume per 'puff' is also a lot less hence the smaller devices.

just for what it's worth, i personally get nicotine salt juices for use with my sub ohm tank. i never really got the appeal of those small vape pen style ones like the ego or the modern wave of juuls. but i have heard some people say you can't do nicotine salt ones or shouldn't with a sub ohm vaporizer. i still don't see why. the reduction of throat hit with a large delivery of vapor seems to be the ideal way to consume it for me

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#93

Post by colechristensen » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 10:25 PM UTC

sbilstein wrote: post #44

One thing that gets lost in Juul and vaping supporters is just how bad nicotine addiction is for your personal life. I recently quit nicotine a few months ago and it made a big difference for me. Nicotine withdrawal kicks in very quick which is why smokers take constant breaks. The anxiety, the grumpiness, irritability and anger you feel as a smoker when you are without nicotine will piss off your partner, make you s…

It comes down to personality and biochemistry, not everyone is that hooked on the stuff.

If you ban everything that is addictive you end up doing a disservice to people who can handle the substance or item in question. Banning addictive substances because some people can't handle them goes against my philosophy of the purpose of government.

Do we need some kind of super-citizen test where you have to prove your knowledge and responsibility for people to be able to be free to do/have/use the things they want?

I don't want a nanny state that bans what it thinks is bad for me and prevents me from accessing things that I want because some people can't handle it.

I was talking to some of my old farmer relatives a few months ago and one of them was telling stories about his dynamite license. It was a useful thing to have when interacting with the land and you could get a license and just go out and buy dynamite. This was maybe 50 years ago. That is the kind of world I want to live in, where people who can prove themselves can get any tool they want or need to manipulate their minds or the world around them.

Not a world where a committee (or public pressure) can decide what I can't handle or what's too dangerous.

I don't want to live in a world of padded walls.

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#94

Post by gamblor956 » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 10:26 PM UTC

Enginerrrd wrote: post #67

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been addicted to tobacco but I used to vape heavily in HS & currently on/off (my friend brings his vape(s) over, etc). I've never experienced anything to the extent you describe. I can definiently feel a desire, in that, I would rather be vaping vs not but not the the point that I've actually filled up any of my personal vapes recenctly or bought a new device. It's well known that the other chemicals in to…

Nicotine is itself a carcinogen. But in general, smokeless tobacco products (including vaping) are much less damaging to your health than smoking.

Statistically, vaping products are far more dangerous than smoking.

Smoking may cause cancer and lung disease which kills smokers over time, but that time period is measured in years and decades.

In contrast, 8 people have died in the last few months from vaping-related illnesses despite most of them being active and healthy only a month or two before their deaths. Another several hundred people are in hospital beds with severe lung diseases related to vaping and many of them could die or never regain function.

At the current rate, vaping would need to go another few decades without a single death just to achieve statistical parity with smoking.

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#95

Post by lsniddy » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 10:28 PM UTC

draw_down wrote: post #63

lsniddy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i was a tobacco user for roughly ten years, equivalent of 2-5 cigarrettes a day max. The month i picked up a juul that amount effectively 10x'ed. I feel bad for all these kids who are going to leave high school with a stronger nicotine tolerance and dependence than some 40 year chain smokers.

This is why I never tried it. I bet I would like it, a lot. And with cigarettes you have to go outside, you smell bad, etc., these things have none of those problems. It just looks very easy to get hooked on them.

There's no negative feedback loop to vaping, its like if you could drink with no hangovers.

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#96

Post by decebalus1 » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 10:31 PM UTC

dumbfoundded wrote: post #32

ent101 wrote: post #2

Honest question: how much of the recent pushback could be attributed to incumbents feeling threatened by Juul et al.?

Maybe a better question is who would benefit from Juul failing? I'm not sure who. I don't think it's big tobacco. They need vaping to addict the next generation. Maybe vaping spend is taking away from another vice.

The government. There is big money from cigarette taxes. Juul/vaping pays none. Juul IS big tobacco.

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#97

Post by leetcrew » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 10:31 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #93

sbilstein wrote: post #44

One thing that gets lost in Juul and vaping supporters is just how bad nicotine addiction is for your personal life. I recently quit nicotine a few months ago and it made a big difference for me. Nicotine withdrawal kicks in very quick which is why smokers take constant breaks. The anxiety, the grumpiness, irritability and anger you feel as a smoker when you are without nicotine will piss off your partner, make you s…

It comes down to personality and biochemistry, not everyone is that hooked on the stuff. If you ban everything that is addictive you end up doing a disservice to people who can handle the substance or item in question. Banning addictive substances because some people can't handle them goes against my philosophy of the purpose of government. Do we need some kind of super-citizen test where you have to prove your knowl…

personally I'm with you, although I'll grant reasonable concessions (eg, not many citizens need surface-to-air missiles). the problem is ideological unfortunately. people simply don't share your definition of "freedom" or value it.

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#98

Post by vkou » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 10:31 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #38

dumbfoundded wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a better question is who would benefit from Juul failing? I'm not sure who. I don't think it's big tobacco. They need vaping to addict the next generation. Maybe vaping spend is taking away from another vice.

> Maybe a better question is who would benefit from Juul failing? Public health?

Yes, but unless you tell us how we can profit from that, that's not an interesting answer.

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#99

Post by temporaryvector » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 10:37 PM UTC

ent101 wrote: post #2

Honest question: how much of the recent pushback could be attributed to incumbents feeling threatened by Juul et al.?

Wouldn't it be more correct to say that any sanctions and regulations that result from this are unlikely to kill off Juul since it's pretty large already and partially owned by the incumbents and instead would make any new competition have a harder time breaking in into the market?

This seems to me the same kind of thing as Facebook and Google supporting privacy regulations.

Not that regulation is inherently bad, but this kind of thing seems to be a theme lately. Well, I say lately, but reading up some history, this kind of thing does tend to happen. This is, of course, still not enough of an argument against regulation, but it does tend to temper any optimism I have about regulations that I would be in favor of.

Re: Federal Prosecutors Conducting Criminal Probe of Juul

#100

Post by WaxProlix » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 10:38 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #93

sbilstein wrote: post #44

One thing that gets lost in Juul and vaping supporters is just how bad nicotine addiction is for your personal life. I recently quit nicotine a few months ago and it made a big difference for me. Nicotine withdrawal kicks in very quick which is why smokers take constant breaks. The anxiety, the grumpiness, irritability and anger you feel as a smoker when you are without nicotine will piss off your partner, make you s…

It comes down to personality and biochemistry, not everyone is that hooked on the stuff. If you ban everything that is addictive you end up doing a disservice to people who can handle the substance or item in question. Banning addictive substances because some people can't handle them goes against my philosophy of the purpose of government. Do we need some kind of super-citizen test where you have to prove your knowl…

What's to stop research into super-heroin as a product in that world? Just come up with the most psyche-abusive substance possible and enjoy an army of essentially slaves. People with the notion that free will is some sort of absolute confuse the heck out of me. I guess sibling post is right, it's just an issue of fundamental worldview being different.