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Is the era of the $100 graphing calculator coming to an end?

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Re: Is the era of the $100 graphing calculator coming to an end?

#61

Post by ineedasername »

thayne wrote: post #45
jedberg wrote: post #7

This can be summed up pretty easily. The TI graphing calculator has no internet access and no ability to store notes. Neither ability can be easily added. As long as that is the case, they will win, because the test companies don't want to deal with people having internet access and notes. Now if Apple/Android made a simple way for a test proctor to put your phone into a single app only that you couldn't easily break…

That is an argument against allowing phone apps. But doesn't excuse requiring students to pay $100+ for antiquated technology.

> doesn't excuse..."

At least for widespread standardized tests that allow or require a calculator, the obvious solution would seem to be providing students with one at the beginning of the exam. In addition to preventing cheating with unauthorized programs when students bring their own, it ensures there's a level playing field for poorer students who might not be able to afford one. Add an extra $1 to the cost of the test if need be-- the calculators should last at least 100 tests or so, and they could probably get a volume discount anyway.

Re: Is the era of the $100 graphing calculator coming to an end?

#62

Post by scottlocklin »

Robotbeat wrote: post #36
frostburg wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's nice but as far as I know it doesn't have a real CAS despite its processing power.

The TI-89 series' CAS is really impressive, particularly since it was released over 20 years ago with automatic equation formatting and a powerful unit subsystem. The price of this is worth it for the software alone.

It was/is amazing, and was actually released 31 years ago!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derive_(computer_algebra_syste...

I used it as a DOS program well up into the late 90s on my HP200lx... One of the badass things about it, afaik, hasn't been reproduced in any CAS: the quasi-ncurses looking menu made it easy to use on limited hardware and you didn't have to waste time looking things up. I occasionally consider buying one of the TI calculators just to fool around with it again.

Re: Is the era of the $100 graphing calculator coming to an end?

#63

Post by localhost »

Seems like there are many options available that improve the accessibility of the TI-89 (and as a parent of a middle and a high-schooler I’ve been frustrated by this as much as the next parent):

- You can go to eBay - Here’s a used listing at $29 [1]

- You can go to Alibaba and purchase what is likely a knock-off at $20-$50 for a minimum order of 100 units (perhaps an arbitrage opportunity for an enterprising student? :) [2]

I also came across an interesting article that calls into question the ability of TI to copyright the keyboard layout which cites Lotus v. Borland and Oracle v. Google decisions [3]

[1] https://www.ebay.com/p/1800843141?thm=3000

[2] https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/ti-89-calculator.html?searc...

[3] https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wnxeqb/one-reason-why-you...

Re: Is the era of the $100 graphing calculator coming to an end?

#64

Post by deckar01 »

> was first released in 2004 for around $120 ... still sells for nearly the same price [$102.99]... One analyst placed the cost to produce a TI-84 Plus at around $15-20, meaning TI sells it for a profit margin of nearly 50% — far above the electronics industry’s average margin of 6.7%.

Wouldn't that be a 81% - 85% margin? (gross profit / revenue)

Edit: I finally got through the paywalled article they were quoting. It says "over 50%". Retail distributors take a margin, so that is probably where the uncertainty is coming from.

Re: Is the era of the $100 graphing calculator coming to an end?

#65

Post by derekp7 »

JohnBooty wrote: post #46

It's a shame we've standardized on something so ancient and limited, but we'll be losing something when we give up on the standardization we've achieved. At least if we accept that basic graphing capability is crucial to high school and undergrad maths. I'm picturing a high school math teacher trying to support 20-30 kids running 20-30 different BYOD'd devices... multiplied by 5-6 periods of teaching per day. Even if…

That's why standards shouldn't focus on the device and model number, but on minimum capabilities and user interface. So even if a given calculator supports various other functionality and advanced programmability, as long as you can switch it into a "standard UI" mode (which defines what various buttons do, the programming language, screen output, etc) then there shouldn't be a problem

For test taking, you can even add boot verification -- you can run whatever you want on it, but to get the green "Verified" light to come on it would have to boot into a signed image.

Re: Is the era of the $100 graphing calculator coming to an end?

#66

Post by bsznjyewgd »

I feel really out of the loop here. I went through a pretty standard curriculum in the 2000s and have never owned or used a graphing calculator (aside from the few times the teacher demonstrated our school's TI-83s in class in high school). What are they used for?

[And while I used a bog standard scientific calculator regularly in science/stats classes, I'm pretty sure my calculus classes disallowed calculators and only stuck to magic numbers that were easy to manually calculate with. It might even be plausible to go through a whole math curriculum without a calculator apart from whatever stats/applied classes you're required to take.]

Re: Is the era of the $100 graphing calculator coming to an end?

#67

Post by lb1lf »

bsamuels wrote: post #27
jedberg wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most test proctors make you clear your memory before a test in high school. In college they don't care as much because they are used to making "open book tests".

The trick with those is you can make a TI-BASIC program that will make it look like you cleared the memory - fake empty "programs" list and all. There were a few tiny details you couldn't replicate like the highlighting animation, but they never noticed when I did it.

When I was in our high school equivalent, our maths teacher blew that trick out of the water simply by having us all clear the calculator memory, then having us swap calculators at random.

Worked a charm. Next time, noone had bothered to hide notes as they didn't want to spend time helping some random sod out.

Solidarity is dead.

(You could, of course, try to counter this by having the entire class install the same cheat - but that would be unlikely to succeed...)

Re: Is the era of the $100 graphing calculator coming to an end?

#68

Post by hnruss »

I learned programming on a TI 83+ while ignoring math lectures in high school. I grew up to become a full-time software developer, so IMO that $100 calculator was money well spent.

I also learned some stuff about math and graphs on the TI 83+, but I haven't used much of that knowledge in my work.

Re: Is the era of the $100 graphing calculator coming to an end?

#69

Post by echelon »

jmcphers wrote: post #16
jedberg wrote: post #7

This can be summed up pretty easily. The TI graphing calculator has no internet access and no ability to store notes. Neither ability can be easily added. As long as that is the case, they will win, because the test companies don't want to deal with people having internet access and notes. Now if Apple/Android made a simple way for a test proctor to put your phone into a single app only that you couldn't easily break…

You can easily store notes on a TI calculator. I had a TI-85 in college, and was occasionally guilty of writing TI-BASIC programs to make tests easier (for example, I had one which computed Euler's method).

I think a better solution is to have the school purchase all of the calculators and give them to students at the time of the exam.

This also would align with driving costs down since schools will not want to pay $100 per calculator for their student body.

Re: Is the era of the $100 graphing calculator coming to an end?

#70

Post by mandevil »

ineedasername wrote: post #61
thayne wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an argument against allowing phone apps. But doesn't excuse requiring students to pay $100+ for antiquated technology.

> doesn't excuse..." At least for widespread standardized tests that allow or require a calculator, the obvious solution would seem to be providing students with one at the beginning of the exam. In addition to preventing cheating with unauthorized programs when students bring their own, it ensures there's a level playing field for poorer students who might not be able to afford one. Add an extra $1 to the cost of th…

The SAT II Math exam is administered 6 times during the 2019-2020 school year. To be used 100 times, it would have to last over 15 years. For IB/AP Calc it's even worse, that is literally given on one day to the entire country (modulo a very small number of makeup exams), so would get two days of use per year (one for AP, one for IB). If you used the same set of calculators for both, we're talking about the hardware lasting at least 12 years on average, ignoring storage and transportation costs. Oh, and then you expose yourself to "the calculator was broken, that's why I failed" when right now they have the excellent defense of "well, you brought it."
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