The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#181

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 11:07 AM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #42

cable2600 wrote: post #12

Even with corporate training the users I worked with couldn't find out how to do things even with a FAQ, HOWTO, F1 Help, and Help Desk helping them out. Web and Desktop apps. Plus they requested features that already were in the programs to be added in the next release. Which means they didn't know how to access them.

Shit, I run our developer services group at my company, meaning we design and manage tools for our own developers. I am always shocked at how many people respond to emails asking questions that are answered IN BOLD in the first paragraph of the email announcing a new tool or service. The smartest people can sometimes miss the simplest of details.

That might actually be "banner blindness". If you make something stand out too much, especially in strategic places like the very top of the message, people will subconsciously interpret it as an advertisement, and filter it out before it reaches their awareness.

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#182

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 11:12 AM UTC

nitwit005 wrote: post #90

I'd be cautious of this sort of study. Just as many of us Google how to do things, people can offen figure out enough to get things done with the help of those around them. The staff at fast food restaurants and call centers generally seem to muddle through. Similarly, kids seem to figure out video game problems that would stump many adults.

Video games disprove a lot of UI/UX "wisdom" by demonstrating that people actually do learn - if they care. It's often the context that makes people not care. Do they get any personal value from caring? Can they get away with not caring and still get the same (or same enough) results? For video games, the answers are, in order, "yes" and "no", and so players easily learn to operate absurdly complex interfaces, and to do it at speed.

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#183

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 11:26 AM UTC

benologist wrote: post #2

This is where open source is an unsung hero continually advancing not just the computer skills but the really advanced stuff. This study finds only 5% of adults can do what they call complex tasks like navigating and filling out forms in a browser, while 69% could barely work for Uber, barely use Uber, or not even figure out Uber. Open source is sitting there teaching and training people how to create Uber.

How is Open Source sitting there teaching people how to use large amounts of investor money to perform regulatory arbitrage at international scale, breaking laws in country after country and getting away with it because you move fast and break things (and are based in a country surrounded by nuclear aircraft carriers)?

Oh wait, you mean create an app for a taxi network?

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#184

Post by asjw » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 11:27 AM UTC

bakuninsbart wrote: post #177

js8 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, in really well-designed UI of the past, every menu option had a hint in the status bar, every GUI element had a tool tip, that explained what will happen when you click on it. I find modern applications (especially mobile ones) much harder to discover and use. If you're a teen, you have plenty of time to experiment, but as an adult, I just want to get the work done. Yeah, you could say that I don't want to lear…

I think a major difference is also that for the teens of today, these apps are intuitive, if they are well designed. They take like 20 seconds to figure everything out. It is just us oldies who grew up with mouse and keyboard who have these problems.

I think it's just dumbing down the options.

It's recognition over recollection.

It is well known that recognition is easier, and that's why consistency help so much.

But used everywhere, as if it was the only available tool, it makes discoverability less safe, hence it reduces it.

If street signs are well positioned I don't need to know the route, if there are no signs and I don't recognize the place, I'm doomed.

If an app does one thing, it's easy to remember how to do that one thing.

But if another app does the same thing in a different way, now I have to remember two things and recall from memory which one uses which way.

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#185

Post by userbinator » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 11:27 AM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #126

tomc1985 wrote: post #93

And this is why software sucks. We should focus on educating users, not stooping to their level GUIs of old had a specific design language. Like: File, Edit, Window, Help in the menubar -- always consistent, always in the same order, and always containing the same thing. Min/max/close buttons in the upper-right. And so on. If one knows the GUI language they can use almost any application for many solutions at a basic…

I learned very thoroughly that the software version details were under "Help -> About". If it's not there, I'm not only stumped; I'm genuinely angry. That doesn't have to be logical; emotional reactions happen by themselves. Making me angry with your software is not good for sales. Running on my desktop this very second; Postman. "Help" has no about. It has a "Check for Updates", but that doesn't tell me my current v…

Newer versions of MS Office (with that ribbon) have the same problem. There is an About dialog, but getting to it is a process that I still can't remember after having to do it a few times. Yet Help->About is still in my mind after all these years, despite not using it all that much.

The idiotic full screen save menu that forces you to click a few more times to save on the computer instead of a cloud service (I'm sure that's some sort of dark pattern...) is even worse, however.

Edit: here's a good rant about that latter one: https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/11058/save-me-from-shit-u...

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#186

Post by userbinator » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 11:32 AM UTC

sedachv wrote: post #106

willismichael wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I regard all of those to be interesting subjects, and consider that an adult should have at least a cursory knowledge of all of them. However, you are right, plenty of people just don't want to know anything about any of the above.

Consider this fact: 70% of the adult population of the United States is overweight or obese.¹ An uncharitable interpretation would be that 70% of adults in the United States cannot manage to feed themselves appropriately. ¹ https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statisti...

...or that they really really love to eat.

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#187

Post by Etheryte » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 11:33 AM UTC

blunte wrote: post #137

Some (many) users actively refuse to learn. There appears to be some psychological barrier that prevents them from even trying (perhaps similar to how some people panic at seeing any math beyond simple addition arithmetic). That's not to say the people are stupid - many of them are relative experts in some other domain, but yet when a computer interface is presented, they shut off their brains. While I find "wizard"…

I think this type of approach doesn't really help anyone, it's just condescending. As a user I don't want to learn, I actively refuse to. I want to do what ever I need to do and move on. Unless I use your application professionally, I don't want to learn it.

I think the crux of the problem is secretly hidden here, though. Many creators overestimate how interested other people are in what they made. The complexity of using your solution is always at odds with how painful the problem I have is. If your solution isn't easy to figure out, it can be easier to just solve the problem in an other way.

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#188

Post by balfirevic » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 11:39 AM UTC

rjf72 wrote: post #98

userbinator wrote: post #28

Interesting to see that Japan both has the most "can't use computers" and "strong" users... I've personally observed (and had to help) many times where an otherwise extremely intelligent person seems to completely lose his/her brain upon being seated in front of a computer, and wonder why that is; these people can be experts in various other fields involving significant mental ability (e.g. maths, physics, chemistry)…

Peruse the posts in this thread and I think you can see your answer. Many people seem to be literally happy to accept ignorance in fields outside their expertise. There's one exchange near the top of this thread that's been repeated multiple times with the specifics swapped. A user suggested that people would benefit from learning the basics of car maintenance - changing fluids, brake pads, etc.. It's downvoted with…

First of all, user didn't suggest that people would benefit from learning the basics of car maintenance but instead said that the car owners should learn how to do it.

But to get to the real point, you are talking about two different issues as if they are one and the same. The car discussion is about not being interested in learning some things because you can just pay someone to do it while you do something else that you enjoy more. That it is easy to learn has nothing to do with it.

The parent poster here is talking about intelligent people being unable to complete basic tasks on a computer, even though they are sincerely trying to learn how to do them and sometimes even having them explained in detail.

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#189

Post by cameronbrown » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 11:56 AM UTC

Angostura wrote: post #153

agent008t wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Linux/Windows computer in a household is a device that allows both consuming and creating. Many, if not most of us got into creating using a computer just by having access to one and being curious. An iPhone or an iPad is just a device for consumption. It completely hides, if not locks you out of, the underlying workings of the device, meaning that you learn nothing and you create nothing.

You should have a play with Shortcuts on the iPhone - or Swift Playground, or any other the plethora of 3rd party coding platforms that run on iOS.

Most of these are for education and not real work.

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#190

Post by cameronbrown » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 11:58 AM UTC

_the_inflator wrote: post #134

tomc1985 wrote: post #93

And this is why software sucks. We should focus on educating users, not stooping to their level GUIs of old had a specific design language. Like: File, Edit, Window, Help in the menubar -- always consistent, always in the same order, and always containing the same thing. Min/max/close buttons in the upper-right. And so on. If one knows the GUI language they can use almost any application for many solutions at a basic…

> GUIs of old had a specific design language. Like: File, Edit, Window, Help in the menubar -- always consistent, always in the same order, and always containing the same thing. Min/max/close buttons in the upper-right. Mistake #1: Windows != GUI Apple has/had another design language. But Apple got it more right. Ironically Steve Jobs fulfilled Bill Gates mission (~a computer in household) with the iPhone. Mistake #2…

Nit pick: Bill Gates achieved his mission of a computer in every household long before iPhone. Jobs just changed the paradigm to a computer in every pocket.