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Almost one in five men admits to having no close friends, a survey has found

thetimes.co.uk

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Re: Almost one in five men admits to having no close friends, a survey has found

#401

Post by krapp »

malandrew wrote: post #197
chicob wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's funny. My first thought was that the narrative being fed here was "men are victims of the patriarchy", and my second thought that maybe The Times would now on be considered "a platform for the man's rights movement's narratives".

Once upon a time under the patriarchy, men’s social clubs were a common phenomena, but then it became unacceptable for such places to exist because of “power structures” yada yada yada. It’s not a coincidence that loneliness for men rose as spaces for men declined.

> It’s not a coincidence that loneliness for men rose as spaces for men declined.

This assumes that men can only congregate in "spaces" which exclude women, which is obviously untrue. I also assumes that men primarily socialized in such spaces to begin with, despite them also typically discriminating by class and race, as well as gender.

That such spaces have declined should have no effect on the ability of men to congregate and form relationships with one another. Gaming as a culture, which is primarily (albeit not exclusively) male-oriented, wouldn't exist otherwise, as one example.

Re: Almost one in five men admits to having no close friends, a survey has found

#402

Post by CapricornNoble »

black_puppydog wrote: post #180

Sorry, I know this will trigger some folks, but this is exactly why I never understood the backlash against "toxic masculinity" that I see from (male) friends whenever the term comes up. Who said it's supposed to be toxic only for others? Being a stereotypically "manly" man would prevent me in particular from expressing some of the things that make me feel the least lonely, from simple things like cooking and being p…

>>>Being a stereotypically "manly" man would prevent me in particular from expressing some of the things that make me feel the least lonely, from simple things like cooking

HUH?!?!?! Who's giving you the impression that cooking is unmanly? Every man should know how to prepare healthy and tasty meals, not only for his own nutrition objectives (like meal prep in support of a fitness regimen), but women also find it attractive.

Re: Almost one in five men admits to having no close friends, a survey has found

#403

Post by krapp »

ancarda wrote: post #224
black_puppydog wrote: post #180

Sorry, I know this will trigger some folks, but this is exactly why I never understood the backlash against "toxic masculinity" that I see from (male) friends whenever the term comes up. Who said it's supposed to be toxic only for others? Being a stereotypically "manly" man would prevent me in particular from expressing some of the things that make me feel the least lonely, from simple things like cooking and being p…

I think it's mostly due to the phrase "toxic masculinity"; it's far too easy to misunderstand it as "masculinity is toxic" - and it doesn't help when someone asks for examples; stuff like stoicism and strength can come up. These aren't toxic. I've also spoken to people who actually believe independence (and wanting to be independent) is toxic. As this is mostly a branding problem, I want to say I recently came across…

It isn't really a branding problem. "Toxic masculinity" consists of an adjective and a noun - the former modifying the latter and therefore describing a trait which applies to a subset of the latter. It's common English. A "red apple" isn't easy to misunderstand as "all apples are red." A "hot plate" doesn't imply all plates are always hot.

People who misunderstand this phrase refuse to do so even when the proper definition is given to them. It's not simple misunderstanding, as simple misunderstandings can be simply corrected, but willful ignorance. You can argue for hours and explain in excruciating detail that "toxic masculinity" doesn't mean "all masculinity is toxic," providing sources to that end, and at the end of the day people will still stand firm and refuse to accept it.

>As this is mostly a branding problem, I want to say I recently came across the phrase "Man Box"[1]. That might be a better phrase to use?

Case in point. This site describes exactly what toxic masculinity actually is and what it actually means. But we need a "better phrase" because feminists used the other one and therefore it's tainted? Despite the fact that toxic masculinity as a term originated in the men's rights movement and as a concept is hardly alien to male culture? We can have a conversation about the possible negative aspects of male culture and masculine identity, but we just can't say the bad words with the girl cooties on them?

The problem isn't branding, it's men refusing to accept that any concept they consider "feminist" could be rooted in anything but hate and misogyny. Modern male culture needs to mature and move past the victim complex its built around itself and see the common ground it has with feminists.

Re: Almost one in five men admits to having no close friends, a survey has found

#404

Post by azdacha »

buro9 wrote: post #87

I run 300 forums, and I had a startup for them. The lofty goal of the startup was to "cure loneliness" but I never told the users that. My path to doing this was to encourage interest based communication, in a way that would allow them to take it offline. How? Well to make it interest + geography, i.e. horology nerds in Cumbria, cyclists in London, petrol heads in Cornwall, audiophiles in Suffolk. By binding together…

That's what I call success ;

Thanks a lot

Re: Almost one in five men admits to having no close friends, a survey has found

#405

Post by black_puppydog »

CapricornNoble wrote: post #402
black_puppydog wrote: post #180

Sorry, I know this will trigger some folks, but this is exactly why I never understood the backlash against "toxic masculinity" that I see from (male) friends whenever the term comes up. Who said it's supposed to be toxic only for others? Being a stereotypically "manly" man would prevent me in particular from expressing some of the things that make me feel the least lonely, from simple things like cooking and being p…

>>>Being a stereotypically "manly" man would prevent me in particular from expressing some of the things that make me feel the least lonely, from simple things like cooking HUH?!?!?! Who's giving you the impression that cooking is unmanly? Every man should know how to prepare healthy and tasty meals, not only for his own nutrition objectives (like meal prep in support of a fitness regimen), but women also find it att…

Yeah I agree that cooking is the one most accepted in western countries right now. However, in many households it's still predominantly the woman who cooks day to day. Men tend to reserve that for dating, special occasions, or as the token "see I'm doing my share" thing.

Re: Almost one in five men admits to having no close friends, a survey has found

#406

Post by CapricornNoble »

intrasight wrote: post #149

Here's an easy solution guys - make friends with more women. A couple years ago my wife asked for a divorce (we are still married but separated). It was very much a wake up call that I was very dependent upon her emotionally and I had neglected my other friendships. I did two things. I invested myself in some old friends from high school and college, but as none of them are living in my city, I realized that I really…

>>>I think guy friendships are harder because of social expectations of of what a male friendship is - especially if like me you don't enjoy drinking or spectator sports.

What kind of men have you tried to socialize with that you feel "male friendship" largely = drinking and sports?

I don't drink, and I hate sports. Most of the dudes I know are on the same wavelength, and I don't think they were that hard to find. They are content to go to a coffee shop or other business and shoot the shit about [cars; investing; tech; gaming; politics] while trying to meet more women (in other words, regardless of how many women they already have in their sex life, they are ALWAYS screening new applicants). Only one guy I can think of has female friends he socializes with that he's NOT also banging or used to bang.

"Women have platonic friends. Men don't have platonic friends, we just have women we haven't f---'d yet. As soon as I figure this out, I'm in there!" --Chris Rock [1]

[1]https://youtu.be/zywIR_ZFLts

Re: Almost one in five men admits to having no close friends, a survey has found

#407

Post by throwaway66920 »

ivalm wrote: post #199
throwaway66920 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay is not the same for a variety of reasons. You have one employer, you have infinite potential friends. Pay concerns are also normalized to things like your job, your education, and experience. If men have fewer friends then must be because they don’t know how to make new friends, they don’t put in the effort to make new friends, or they don’t have the time to make new friends. While the latter may be a genuine con…

Or because societal norms arent conducive to forming new male friendships?

I don’t see it being a large barrier. Some men like the image of self sufficiency and don’t seek new friends. But plenty don’t. So if you’re a man desiring to make new friends I find it hard to believe that you are unable to find the opportunities.

Re: Almost one in five men admits to having no close friends, a survey has found

#408

Post by CapricornNoble »

krapp wrote: post #401
malandrew wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once upon a time under the patriarchy, men’s social clubs were a common phenomena, but then it became unacceptable for such places to exist because of “power structures” yada yada yada. It’s not a coincidence that loneliness for men rose as spaces for men declined.

> It’s not a coincidence that loneliness for men rose as spaces for men declined. This assumes that men can only congregate in "spaces" which exclude women, which is obviously untrue. I also assumes that men primarily socialized in such spaces to begin with, despite them also typically discriminating by class and race, as well as gender. That such spaces have declined should have no effect on the ability of men to co…

>>>This assumes that men can only congregate in "spaces" which exclude women, which is obviously untrue.

While male-exclusive bonding isn't men's ONLY option/method, it most definitely yields different results than any gender-integrated environment. Anyone who has spent time in an all-male combat arms unit can attest to this.

>>>That such spaces have declined should have no effect on the ability of men to congregate and form relationships with one another.

Should we eliminate female-only spaces as well? If not, why? A subsection of feminists have fought to keep bathrooms exclusive to biological females. Why does the Girl Scouts still exist if the Boy Scouts has been gender-integrated? Women must be deriving some sort of bonding utility out female-exclusive zones. Why shouldn't men also have such options?

Re: Almost one in five men admits to having no close friends, a survey has found

#409

Post by rimliu »

crimsonalucard wrote: post #380
garmaine wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an introvert. People drain me. I find fulfillment in the world around me and my hobbies. I’m on HN not to be social but to learn things. I don’t need validation from others. I don’t hate human interaction either. I have friends. I just don’t NEED them, and don’t need to go seeking them or be especially close.

I would say you're the biological anomaly. Humans are social creatures. Much or our society is defined by our achievements as a group then individually. I would say the op very accurately describes a general problem.

And I would say you are the victim of pro-extravert brainwashing. The most shocking thing I've learned from the book "Quiet" that there was an general attitude towards intrawerts that they are somehow deficient, and, what's worse, actual discrimination against them at universities.

Being introvert does not mean you are antisocial, you just don't need to socialize that much. It may be very enjoyable but it is also so draining.

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