My father was IBM’s first black software engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#141

Post by tlb » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 4:03 AM UTC

goog-anon wrote: post #138

handlegoeshere wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When using Asian here, are you referring to Indians or Chinese? As a black engineer, I have also experienced the same discrimination from Indians.

Both. But I'd definitely give the edge to Indians. My historical pass rate for Indian interviewers is dismal, like 2/25 (going back to when I was 16 y/o applying at KFC). I've had slightly better success with East asians. We talk about 'institutionalized' racism here in the US, but racism/discrimination is institutionalized in Indian culture and religions, and that's sadly not going away. I wish there was a tactful w…

They might be responding to your prejudice. Try dialing it down and see if you get more offers.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#142

Post by goog-anon » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 4:14 AM UTC

tlb wrote: post #141

goog-anon wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both. But I'd definitely give the edge to Indians. My historical pass rate for Indian interviewers is dismal, like 2/25 (going back to when I was 16 y/o applying at KFC). I've had slightly better success with East asians. We talk about 'institutionalized' racism here in the US, but racism/discrimination is institutionalized in Indian culture and religions, and that's sadly not going away. I wish there was a tactful w…

They might be responding to your prejudice. Try dialing it down and see if you get more offers.

Yeah, I'm sure they could all smell my prejudice across the table.

On a serious note, to keep a long winded answer short, I'm well aware of the phenomena that your mindset does indeed effect your behaviour/signals you put out and that in turn does effect how people treat you, and mindset is not something that can easily be faked. I've always been hyper conscious about this going into interviews and have even paid for some in-person mock interviews at some point in my career during a rough patch to spot any anomalies/negative vibes I may be giving off.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#143

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 4:14 AM UTC

sumedh wrote: post #62

goldcd wrote: post #8

I was happily nodding along, until I got to: "Somehow, he managed to obtain copies of the IBM entrance examination questions and answers, which he surreptitiously shared with promising young black job applicants. He coached them on passing the exam and succeeding in their interviews. Many were subsequently hired." I'm sure this helped contribute to an increase in black hires, but is a stupidly short-sighted thing to…

There are many sites which have interview questions of famous tech companies, looking at those questions is cheating?

[deleted]

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#144

Post by perfect_wave » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 4:26 AM UTC

lopmotr wrote: post #121

mieseratte wrote: post #4

> Recent studies conclude this is not a “pipeline” problem — qualified candidates can be found. Really wish they'd provided a link to the stud(y|ies). There certainly exist qualified people of all stripes, but are there enough to meet a population-level representative size?

The pipeline problem for blacks begins before the age of 4 when their IQs are measurably lower than whites and stay that way for life. This is well known and has been studied to death. Any talk about education or whatever at school age or above is ultimately futile because you can't improve IQ in a lasting way. Some researchers attribute it to cultural parenting techniques or the environment or other things. But, fun…

After some cursory research I've found the following two quotes. The first, from Wikiepdia, likely has other sources in the footnotes, but I didn't look. Honestly, I found it really hard to read your post and not view it as incredibly racist.

The study found that "(a) putative genetic racial differences do not account for a major portion of the IQ performance difference between racial groups, and (b) black and interracial children reared in the culture of the tests and the schools perform as well as other adopted children in similar families." [0]

"This paper proposes a parsimonious alternative explanation: the apparent IQ advantage of East Asian adoptees is an artifact caused by ignoring the Flynn effect and adoption’s beneficial effect on IQ, and most of the IQ disadvantage of Black adoptees disappears when one allows for attrition in the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study, and acknowledges the results of other studies. Diagnosing these artifacts suggests a nil hypothesis: East Asian, White, and Black adoptees raised in the same environment would have similar IQs, hinting at a minimal role for genes in racial IQ differences." [1]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption... [1] https://www.mdpi.com/2079-3200/5/1/1/htm

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#145

Post by leftyted » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 4:27 AM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #122

onetimeposter1 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans are hurt by abuse of the H1B system. Companies will always hire inexpensive labor that they have leverage over and H1B gives them just that. It's necessary to put strict quotas on H1B because otherwise it will be abused, which is bad for both American and foreign workers. Luckily the Trump administration is cracking down on H1B abuse.

[flagged]

The insinuation that anyone who is skeptical of H1B is a xenophobe is insulting and lowers the level of the conversation.

Criticisms of H1B are far older than Trump and the current political climate. If Trump does something right, it's still right, even though he's Donald Trump.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#146

Post by neilv » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 4:35 AM UTC

goog-anon wrote: post #79

goldcd wrote: post #8

I was happily nodding along, until I got to: "Somehow, he managed to obtain copies of the IBM entrance examination questions and answers, which he surreptitiously shared with promising young black job applicants. He coached them on passing the exam and succeeding in their interviews. Many were subsequently hired." I'm sure this helped contribute to an increase in black hires, but is a stupidly short-sighted thing to…

Black engineer here at a FANG. I do this all the time with black candidates who interview. In fact I use my round to coach them on the upcoming rounds and give them stellar feedback afterward. I know many would think this is ethically egregious, but it is only balancing the unbelievable prejudice against them by Asian interviewers who would not pass a black candidate under any circumstance.

(I'm assuming you're speaking in good faith, though I don't yet understand your reasons for saying everything you did.)

I appreciate your intent in trying to re-balance against prejudice.

I also appreciate you helping out candidates with good advice, when you do it. That's what we should do for all colleagues, before, during, and after interviews, as mutually-supportive people of goodwill. And doing it more in some cases makes sense.

I'm concerned about a pattern of racism you allege, and that sounds like something to investigate. I believe there's ample data that could be looked at. I don't know about your organization, but, some places, it would be politically safe to raise this important concern with your manager or HR. It's not a happy thing to look for, but looking for it, and figuring out how to fix any problems that appear, is the right thing to do (for the organization, and for greater society).

The other side of that concern is that you seem to be singling out another labeled group, and stereotyping over them. That doesn't sound fair to that group, nor to all the individuals within it. I think that good practice for fighting injustice includes striving to improve things everywhere, including root causes -- not thinking only of the injustices with which we are most immediately familiar.

The automatic stellar feedback might be a concern. I'm sure there's room for subjectivity, discretion, and holistic assessments, and maybe your stellar feedback fits within that. When I've given boosts to less-advantaged candidates (for various reasons, including "undiscovered diamonds in the rough"), I've been upfront with my peers and superiors about that. A big part of our job as engineers is to give characterizations and counsel, and, when we have something important to say, we want to be respected and taken seriously.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#147

Post by smt88 » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 4:38 AM UTC

goog-anon wrote: post #87

smt88 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please do the world a favor and blow the whistle (or at least speak anonymously to a journalist) instead of trying to subvert a broken system.

This problem gets written about every other month in the media. While revealing the details of my observations and experiences might be interesting, it's definitely not whistleblower material.

Your claim that the interviewers wouldn't pass black applicants "under any circumstances" is much stronger than any media report I've ever seen. Were you exaggerating?

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#148

Post by umvi » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 4:41 AM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #136

jmpman wrote: post #107

I used to work at IBM and a new black engineer joined around the time I joined the team. We both got stuck with the grunt work and bonded over late night conference room video game projector sessions, while running regression tests. I’ve gone on to a relatively successful career outside of IBM, but he was hit in a layoff, with his job sent overseas. Instead of continuing in tech, he moved home, and joined his fathers…

Not just African Americans. In my experience Hispanics are just as non-existent in tech, and they are a larger percentage of the population than AAs.

My guess is that it is a cultural thing. Black/Hispanic parents don't push their kids toward tech careers. Similar to how black/hispanic parents (in America) don't push their kids to learn to swim. The reason their cultures are this way are complex and span generations.

Indian parents, on the other hand, aggressively push their kids into tech. Heck, a lot of my Indian co-workers don't even like programming but their parents basically forced them into it.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#149

Post by iconjack » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 4:45 AM UTC

Every tech company I've ever had anything to do with (which includes IBM) has bent over backwards to hire minority engineers. This ridiculous narrative that the tech world is prejudiced against black people is ridiculous and unproductive. It needs to end. There, I said it.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#150

Post by anon9922 » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 4:46 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #111

anon9922 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it fair to assume then that when you interview an Asian candidate, you will hold them to a much higher bar than black candidates? Or perhaps under no circumstances would you pass them for a role that another Black candidate is applying for? I'm Asian, worked at FANG, have never discriminated against someone based on their ethnicity and frankly find your actions shortsided and regressive. You're fighting perceived…

Honest question from a fellow Asian: what would you say about the level of racism against African Americans among Asians? For my part, I’ve had several unpleasant “oh, now that it’s just us Asians here let me tell you what I think” moments over the years.

Hard to say. There are so few Black software engineers working or even interviewing at the companies I've worked at that I've never encountered racism against them. Though I've heard insensitive comments about other ethnicities casually thrown around.

Personally, I find a more damning pattern is that in some companies, engineering teams lead by first-gen Chinese/Indian managers have disproportionately large number of Chinese/Indian engineers.

People are just more comfortable working with those they share a cultural bond with, but that's distinct from racism specifically against African Americans.