Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech

#31

Post by zelphirkalt » Sun, Sep 22, 2019, 6:46 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #13

moomin wrote: post #3

We can hope so. Free Software is needed in today’s society, probably more than it was needed at its inception. But it needs to be for everyone, and needs new leaders. I hope this is the start, not the end, of the movement.

I hope with you, but I doubt. There was nothing keeping new leaders from emerging before. Stallman never struck me as particularly jealous, just particular. We might just be witnessing the retirement of the only person with the single-mindedness and influence to keep the thing going.

This is also something I fear might happen. Let us hope for the best. Someone with a clear way of making logical arguments, with firm idea about free software, furthering the original goals.

Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech

#32

Post by filoleg » Sun, Sep 22, 2019, 6:51 PM UTC

Freak_NL wrote: post #21

AgentOrange1234 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, it’s certainly not appropriate to ask someone you’ve just met at a technical conference to go on a date with you.

Why not? It's a bit direct and perhaps odd and unexpected, but also polite, possibly flattering, and a very decent way of taking a chance on getting to know someone who you will likely not meet again unless you take action, better. If the response to the rejection of that offer is polite and professional, then how is this inappropriate?

As one of the people he asked out mentioned, his response to the rejection was anything but appropriate (he threatened to kill himself) [0].

0. https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix...

Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech

#33

Post by thrower123 » Sun, Sep 22, 2019, 6:51 PM UTC

rpiguy wrote: post #23

zzzcpan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty obvious that US propaganda and censorship machine pushed into tech at full force in the last couple of years, with all the manufacturing consent at all levels. When they forced codes of conduct, inquisition was already kind of expected.

Is Monty Python lost on this generation?

Have they written all of those jokes and references out of the Python documentation for sins against inclusivity yet? I dearly hope not, but I would not be surprised.

Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech

#34

Post by plange » Sun, Sep 22, 2019, 6:53 PM UTC

moomin wrote: post #3

We can hope so. Free Software is needed in today’s society, probably more than it was needed at its inception. But it needs to be for everyone, and needs new leaders. I hope this is the start, not the end, of the movement.

I agree with everything you said, but this movement has been going on for a long time but and has been very bad at... hisss.. marketing.

These are complex topics and people don't want to put in the effort to understand them so this needs some top-shelf selling power. And there's no money to be made. Just freedom (as in speech).

Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech

#35

Post by zzzcpan » Sun, Sep 22, 2019, 6:53 PM UTC

rpiguy wrote: post #23

zzzcpan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty obvious that US propaganda and censorship machine pushed into tech at full force in the last couple of years, with all the manufacturing consent at all levels. When they forced codes of conduct, inquisition was already kind of expected.

Is Monty Python lost on this generation?

> Is Monty Python lost on this generation?

Could you elaborate? Looks like a UK television thing from the 70s. I'm not familiar with UK television culture references.

Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech

#36

Post by pseudalopex » Sun, Sep 22, 2019, 6:53 PM UTC

_Nat_ wrote: post #12

frabbit wrote: post #6

He asks her out on a date. She says no. He moves on. Is the Wired article mis-representing the gist of Christine Corbett Moran's complaint? Or is the author subtly trying to undermine her?

Is that a misrepresentation? I mean, I'm not familiar with that story, just they linked [this tweet]( https://twitter.com/corbett/status/994012399656042496 ) which says: > My first interaction with RMS was at a hacker con at 19. He asked my name, I gave it, whether I went to MIT (I had an MIT shirt on), and after confirmation I did, asked me on a date. I said no. That was our entire conversation. Christine, yes, no t…

Her story emphasizes that he had no other interest in talking to her. Wired obscures that. I don't think it was malicious, though.

Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech

#37

Post by salawat » Sun, Sep 22, 2019, 6:54 PM UTC

Read the emails.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-091320191420...

Then come back and read what I have to say.

There was nothing offensive or controversial in there. Not a one. The man only pushed to avoid letting the narrative people wanted to believe run away with the reputation of a friend (Minsky) before all the facts were in.

He's endorsing to let the justice system do it's work instead of letting a near tabloid level effort of the media hang a man's reputation out to dry. He's even willing to accept wrongdoing if that is what the facts spell out. He also asks the more extreme poster to the mailing list to provide evidence that it seems he is incapable of uncovering due to his commitment to only using Free Software.

If he's guilty of anything, it's being overconfident of the rationality of others in a world so tormented by those willing to turn even a hint of inconvenient independent thought into a sign of some disfigurement of one's essential humanity.

There are people out there who pose a threat to civil society and deserve civil/social ostracization. Richard Stallman is not the one in this case, as is evidenced by a willingness on his part to have his mind changed.

The media, if anyone, deserves to be ostracized for not actually digging into and presenting the original posts, and picking and choosing only the most controversial aspects of the man that weave the best narrative to draw clicks. If they had done their job, this would have been a non-story, as it would be clear the man was calling for calm in a discussion where passions were running high.

The FSF, and MIT handled the entire thing poorly. Instead of investigating, and not doing anything hastily, they caved to engineered histrionics, and also failed to demonstrate a bare modicum of scrutiny to establish the facts of the matter, or reach out to correct the media. Essentially they prioritized distance and public perception over ensuring the truth was known. Both proved to have betrayed fundamental principles that their respective institutions were set up to protect.

Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech

#38

Post by prepend » Sun, Sep 22, 2019, 6:56 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #20

prepend wrote: post #17

Certainly now tech is finally free to be inclusive. I look forward to the wonderful surge of commits from people who didn’t feel welcome enough to send in their code. Has Freeer Software Foundation been started yet?

What commits did Stallman make after gcc and emacs? He was a pontificating creep and mothing more for decades. The software world will be better off with people in charge who don't endorse politically absolutist creeds or are so socially maladjusted that they make every woman in a ten feet radius uncomfortable. We don't need people who think defending child abusers or pedophilia is appropriate in this community.The o…

We?

Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech

#39

Post by AgentOrange1234 » Sun, Sep 22, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

Freak_NL wrote: post #21

AgentOrange1234 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, it’s certainly not appropriate to ask someone you’ve just met at a technical conference to go on a date with you.

Why not? It's a bit direct and perhaps odd and unexpected, but also polite, possibly flattering, and a very decent way of taking a chance on getting to know someone who you will likely not meet again unless you take action, better. If the response to the rejection of that offer is polite and professional, then how is this inappropriate?

It’s appropriate at a bar. It’s not appropriate at a professional conference or at work. Especially with the age / seniority difference, this is textbook sexual harassment.

Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech

#40

Post by pherrephatta » Sun, Sep 22, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

In seeing all the criticism that software developers have been taking lately over supposed speech transgressions (e.g. Stallman, Torvalds, "Bro", "Weboob"), I can't help but wonder why technical debates have shifted into personal ones, what the proper alternative is to the now seemingly much dreaded meritocratic way of doing things, who truly profits from this change and in what way do they profit from it?

There's no doubt in my mind that harassment and sexual assault, as well as discrimination and sexism, really do happen to some individuals. But when you have narratives being twisted to fit a prescribed perspective, when words and talk about the semantics of those words as signifiers (such as in Stallman's case) are interpreted as defense for the object signified by those words, the line between the aggressor and the aggressee become blurred. That does a lot more harm to movements FOR victim and AGAINST discrimination, by generalizing the phenomenon to the point that it loses all relative value it might've had. If everyone's an aggressor, and every conversation is discriminatory in terms of potential interpretation, all men, women, non-binary, etc. are affected. It is debilitating to the highest degree, and no one should defend, let alone strive to create, such an environment.

If anything, when faced with such situations, we are not discriminatory enough. As Popper described with his famous paradox of tolerance, tolerance of intolerance presages the destruction of tolerance itself. He clarifies, saying: "I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise."[0]

I can only hope that people who are outraged by these aforementioned cases of verbal transgressions have become so because they've misinterpreted what thought was being communicated. Unfortunately, as they more often than not work in consulting or have some "acceptance" program to push towards companies and projects, I can't be certain that they are genuine in their offense.

[0] Karl Popper, Open Society and its Enemies, vol. 1, note 4 to chapter 7.