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Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

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Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#71

Post by claudeganon »

imglorp wrote: post #63
rapind wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to pinpoint where it originated but anti-union sentiment existed conversationally my entire life. The view being that union's are big inefficient bureaucracies of lazy people who get nothing done. It parallels the view of government I grew up with. Never really questioned where this view came from though, but my guess would be persistent long term marketing by interested parties. "Nudging" if you will. That…

You forgot corruption. In the US at least, unions can't seem to stay clean. Now, do the benefits to the workers in a dirty union outweigh the benefits to working for an abusive corporation? I have no idea.

While I’m opposed to corruption in unions, according to the BLS, workers are better off with unions than without them:

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#73

Post by ajross »

cgag wrote: post #43
claudeganon wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has to be framed against the baseline of pervasive anti-union ideology in the US. When people have been inculcated all their lives with the idea that labor organizing is bad, they’re all just temporarily embarrassed corporate execs, it doesn’t take too much to push them back towards this baseline. Or at least enough to quash the union.

What percentage of your life have you been being inculcated with the idea that your political opponents believe themselves to be temporarily embarrassed millionaires?

That's a Steinbeck quote[1]. It's surely being used, just as it was originally, as a fun way to describe the somewhat banal point that people in demographics relevant to organized labor often hold opinions about public policy that are contrary to their personal interest. It's not a literal statement about what's in a republican voter's head.

That said: how many posters here consider themselves just One Great Idea away from being the next Zuckerberg, and thus tend to view discussions on, I dunno, work/life balance or engineers' unions from an employer's perspective instead of their own? Seems like more than a few to me.

[1] OK, I checked wikipedia, turns out that the original phrase was "temporarily embarrassed capitalists", but this is the variant that stuck.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#74

Post by [deleted] »

imglorp wrote: post #63
rapind wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to pinpoint where it originated but anti-union sentiment existed conversationally my entire life. The view being that union's are big inefficient bureaucracies of lazy people who get nothing done. It parallels the view of government I grew up with. Never really questioned where this view came from though, but my guess would be persistent long term marketing by interested parties. "Nudging" if you will. That…

You forgot corruption. In the US at least, unions can't seem to stay clean. Now, do the benefits to the workers in a dirty union outweigh the benefits to working for an abusive corporation? I have no idea.

[deleted]

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#75

Post by bjourne »

rapind wrote: post #51
chrisseaton wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think their angle is that it’s not in anyone’s favour to unionise.

It's hard to pinpoint where it originated but anti-union sentiment existed conversationally my entire life. The view being that union's are big inefficient bureaucracies of lazy people who get nothing done. It parallels the view of government I grew up with. Never really questioned where this view came from though, but my guess would be persistent long term marketing by interested parties. "Nudging" if you will. That…

It is interesting that to most "Made in Germany" is a sign of high quality and that most think Germans have the best work ethic in the world despite also having the strongest labor unions.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#76

Post by dodobirdlord »

claudeganon wrote: post #52
staticautomatic wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One can be pro-organizing but not pro-union.

Not sure how you square those two. Could you elaborate? Any less durable form of organizing seems likely to have its work undone by the very well-organized and durable cadre of owners/management

Many professions that tend to be highly individualistic and require complex mastery have historically been represented by a Guild. While Guilds these days are sometimes a specialized form of union, the distinctions are often significant. A couple examples that come to mind are the American Bar Association, the American Medical Association, the Screen Actors Guild, and the Writers Guild of America.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#77

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

rdiddly wrote: post #28

I always wonder about these ham-handed anti-union efforts. I assume they must work to some degree, or they wouldn't do it. But it seems like the sudden escalation of anti-union arguments would only end up working in favor of the union. Because it betrays how against it they are. It confirms that yes, this union will have an effect, and not in management's favor. Like "Clearly we're onto something here if they oppose…

It's about putting fear into the workers. I recently watched 'American Factory' on Netflix and this is what a union avoidance consultant says to the workers:

Good afternoon. I want to thank you so much for coming. I know you didn't have a choice. The union will go out of their way to try to convince you that it's a good thing for you and that it is in your best interest. The contract that you get, if you get one, might include better wages and benefits. That contract might include the same wages and benefits you have today. And that contract finally might include less wages and less benefits. And the threat of a strike is no longer scary to employers, because today if you go on strike, while you can't get fired, the employer has the right to permanently replace you. I'll let that sink in.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#78

Post by wind0w »

corebit wrote: post #59
erikpukinskis wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re talking about programming... the reason programmers (of a certain sort) are paid a lot in the Bay Area is not because they are vastly “higher” skilled than other people. The average chef in the Bay Area is WAY more skilled than all but the most skilled coders. There are two reasons why programmers (of a certain sort) make so much money: 1) It’s an area of speculation, how much revenue can such people produc…

Whoa! Talk about an overtly racist post! How is this not flagged?!

Criticizing how white men use their whiteness to preserve their exclusive access to money and power isn't racist

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#79

Post by rhizome »

shams93 wrote: post #48
rdiddly wrote: post #28

I always wonder about these ham-handed anti-union efforts. I assume they must work to some degree, or they wouldn't do it. But it seems like the sudden escalation of anti-union arguments would only end up working in favor of the union. Because it betrays how against it they are. It confirms that yes, this union will have an effect, and not in management's favor. Like "Clearly we're onto something here if they oppose…

Right now workers often put in more "give back" than they get paid I often had to work 20 hours to get paid for 8, forcing workers to do 12 hours a day for free is a great deal even if it mentally and physically breaks them who cares they're just temporary. I didn't work for Google but I assume the culture is the same as those places who forced me to work that hard.

FWIW, in the US, the Department of Labor takes wage theft complaints very seriously in the event that you or anybody else submits a complaint about that kind of working situation.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#80

Post by toomuchtodo »

guerrilla wrote: post #67
toomuchtodo wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One should be both , with a careful eye towards aggressive governance and transparency of your union. No different than if you have equity ownership in a startup, the only difference is that you’re selling your time collectively instead of a product. Unions are just corporations for labor sales. If you don’t like your management, replace them with your vote.

> Unions are just corporations for labor. Not necessarily, some are democratic, like some in Sweden. The IWW is an example of an alternative to the centralized unions [1]. 1. https://www.iww.org/about/official/OBU

My point is that unions only suck if you let them suck. The devil is in the implementation details, and the effort put forth by members.
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