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What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)

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Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)

#261

Post by mirimir »

stickfigure wrote: post #208

Beginning programmer: ORMs let me write code without learning SQL! Intermediate programmer: ORMs just get in the way! SQL isn't that hard after all. Advanced programmer: I write a lot of SQL, but I use ORMs to cut out most of the boilerplate.

It's been some years since I used SQL heavily. And I don't recall ever hearing about ORMs.

But I certainly hated writing boilerplate. So I often used Excel and/or SQL to write my SQL.

And I should add that I was using SQL for data forensics, in a very ad hoc way.

Edit: Now I use Calc and bash to write my bash ;)

Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)

#262

Post by ReD_CoDE »

I have four questions related to SQL

1. PostgreSQL or MySQL? And why?

2. Is it possible to build a hybrid database schema? For example, SQLite+JSON?

3. Is it possible to convert XML(XMI) schema to SQLite schema automatically?

4. Is it possible to build a custom file format based on SQLite or hybrid one based on SQLite+JSON?

Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)

#263

Post by pknopf »

wvenable wrote: post #61
geophile wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ORMs make the simple things simple, and the complicated things impossible.

ORMs let you drop into SQL whenever you need, usually in a way that is fully compatible with the model, so that's entirely false.

Just use a Micro ORM from the get-go.

It's the perfect type-safe abstraction on top of raw SQL.

https://github.com/ServiceStack/ServiceStack.OrmLite

https://github.com/CollaboratingPlatypus/PetaPoco

Any errors you get are likely a result of the underlying database/provider (foreign key constraints, etc).

You should never write raw SQL (if possible). You don't need an ORM to achieve that.

Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)

#264

Post by ratww »

bob1029 wrote: post #129
knicholes wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's because the problem isn't directly caused by ORMs but just a very poor usage of ORMs. The same problem would have existed if a loop was written to perform the same query.

Sure you can make arguments one way or another regarding if a hand-written block of SQL would have the same flaw, but if an experienced DBA or developer writes it, I would bet on their output way over anything an ORM outputs. If you consider the software development process as a whole, the explicit SQL approach intrinsically guarantees additional scrutiny of the actual SQL statements. If you hide all of this behind a…

You literally need the same piece of knowledge to to avoid that n+1 problem in both Raw SQL and ORMs: you have to use a join.

Developers have been making n+1 mistakes with Raw SQL for years before ORMs became popular.

It doesn't matter if the "DBA or experienced developer" makes a select query that is better than the ORM. If this select query is inside a loop then all bets are off already.

Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)

#265

Post by graphememes »

sjwright wrote: post #233
stickfigure wrote: post #208

Beginning programmer: ORMs let me write code without learning SQL! Intermediate programmer: ORMs just get in the way! SQL isn't that hard after all. Advanced programmer: I write a lot of SQL, but I use ORMs to cut out most of the boilerplate.

Even more advanced programmer: writing the ‘boilerplate’ queries out manually takes barely more time than composing them in an ORM, means less indirection, saves me a major dependency, and encourages me to think intelligently about each query no matter how boilerplate they might seem at the surface. Super-advanced programmer: allowing my database structure to be influenced by the needs of an off-the-shelf ORM will ma…

10x programmer: I used a tool and it did all the work and now I can move on to the next thing

Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)

#266

Post by graphememes »

hardwaresofton wrote: post #240

ORMs are a leaky abstraction -- there is a sweet spot (mostly basic queries/relationships) where they provide lots of value, but there is a veritable infinity of scenarios beyond where they are a hindrance. Also they tend to introduce lots of hidden complexity when they try to introduce flexibility to match the landscape. I'd argue that most of the time what you really need is a query builder with the right combinato…

TypeORM is great, until you realize you have to use Typescript which is not that great if you've ever used a real type based language

Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)

#267

Post by james_s_tayler »

taffer wrote: post #203
james_s_tayler wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best ORM (outside of ActiveRecord) I've seen was a proprietary hand-rolled one that solved the impedance mismatch. It had a canonical XML format that entities were defined in and code generation for data access layers, domain models, view models etc. It actually worked better than I've seen the abuse I've seen developers put EF through. I found it nicer and simpler than times I've worked with Hibernate. I'm not g…

Have you checked out MyBatis or JOOQ? They sound pretty much like what you're describing.

MyBatis has _some_ similarities, notably the defining entities in xml part. But it diverges after that.

Think about it more like MyBatis meets Spring Data JPA. Define that entity in XML the run a code gen which gives you the CrudRepository class but also generates a controller that exposes an API with pretty good good ability to specify adhoc queries. Plus view models.

I think it worked because it both reasonably well designed and hyper opinionated.

Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)

#268

Post by pknopf »

qes wrote: post #118
invokestatic wrote: post #27

This topic pops up frequently here on HN and every time I’m shocked at how many people have issues with ORMs! I’ve been using Hibernate/Spring Data for several years now and never ran into any issues. If I need to write a complex query, I can easily write a @Query annotation in HQL and it neatly fits right in to the repository class. I also develop with query logging enabled so I have better understanding of the quer…

> I’m shocked at how many people have issues with ORMs Simple inexperience. I'd bet most of those people are mid-level developers who have used ORMs enough to hit the rough edges but not enough, or with enough independent agency, to have worked through how to play to ORM's strengths while avoiding their weaknesses. People that were given a hammer and are just understanding that their hammer doesn't work very well to…

Just not true.

And regardless, why should we develop things that only "experienced devs" can work with without blowing a hole in their face? Junior and intermediate devs are often in larger projects.

Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)

#269

Post by pknopf »

Daishiman wrote: post #210
tigershark wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe you worked only on “toy” projects and never understood that you are doing more work that could be expressed more elegantly in a functional SQL expression instead of using the imperative statements of the ORM engine? The craziest thing in this discussion is that I have to defend SQL that is probably my least favourite language... I never expected this honestly.

My "toy" project with several hundred tables and tens of thousands of users does fine. I have, at most, a couple dozen "complex" queries in this project. Whereas I have an order of magnitude more queries that need to be composed from several different query criteria, a task for which SQL is very poorly optimized for and most ORMs excel at. I have used my ORM for so long that writing a report in SQL or the ORM languag…

Your "toy project" doesn't have 10+ team members, ranging in experience.

Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)

#270

Post by [deleted] »

sjwright wrote: post #233
stickfigure wrote: post #208

Beginning programmer: ORMs let me write code without learning SQL! Intermediate programmer: ORMs just get in the way! SQL isn't that hard after all. Advanced programmer: I write a lot of SQL, but I use ORMs to cut out most of the boilerplate.

Even more advanced programmer: writing the ‘boilerplate’ queries out manually takes barely more time than composing them in an ORM, means less indirection, saves me a major dependency, and encourages me to think intelligently about each query no matter how boilerplate they might seem at the surface. Super-advanced programmer: allowing my database structure to be influenced by the needs of an off-the-shelf ORM will ma…

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