Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Oracle’s Larry Ellison Calls Uber and WeWork ‘Almost Worthless’

barrons.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 96 posts

Re: Oracle’s Larry Ellison Calls Uber and WeWork ‘Almost Worthless’

#81

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

35787 wrote: post #72
im_cynical wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard some economist call Uber "the greatest transfer of wealth in a very long time". What Uber is doing is taking investors money and subsidizing your Uber ride to a restaurant. They are providing value and I'm a casual user myself. However the consumer price right now is arguably unsustainable against the stated quote above. To survive both of them are going to have to raise prices

This is not true. Uber drivers make tons of money. I know because I was one. The press put a microscope on the subset of drivers who are stupid and can’t make money because they run their businesses poorly. The press is happy to let them tell their son stories but what they don’t mention is that those drivers refuse to drive anywhere outside their immediate area, they drive huge shitty cars that cost literally ten ti…

can’t make money because they run their businesses poorly

I don't have any data but this wouldn't surprise me in the least.

You're taking a bunch of people who really aren't that interested in running a business, just in making ends meet. It's not surprising that they won't do the kind of critical analysis that running a profitable business entails.

My first ever Uber ride was in an almost brand new BMW. Really nice car, but I have no idea how you can make money driving Uber with a vehicle that expensive. As a side gig for extra cash a couple hours a day in a high-density area? I can see that. But doing it full time with all the additional wear and tear on the vehicle? No way.

Judging from the comments I see on /r/freelance, I believe many freelancers/gig workers would prefer to be employees because they really don't enjoy doing the work that they are.

Re: Oracle’s Larry Ellison Calls Uber and WeWork ‘Almost Worthless’

#82

Post by Apocryphon »

35787 wrote: post #80
cjarrett wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m gonna trust the multitudes if studies than someone telling the rest of his peers to be better.

You should trust neither. You should think for yourself. Nobody seems to be able to do it anymore. Look, you don’t need a paper or a PhD to understand this: When I was driving, I got paid roughly 60c per mile and then got more for time, a one time fee and tips. But baseline 60c per mile. It costs 20c to 25c per mile to drive a Toyota Corolla. Yes, that includes all expenses. It’s the cost of insurance and gas and the…

Would you tell them to think for themselves even if they happened to be agreeing with you?

Re: Oracle’s Larry Ellison Calls Uber and WeWork ‘Almost Worthless’

#83

Post by Apocryphon »

WhompingWindows wrote: post #21
sokoloff wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Uber (and Lyft) are absolutely adding value. I now regularly take ride shares when I would previously have driven or extremely reluctantly taken cabs. I also talk to my rideshare drivers and the platforms provide some much needed cashflow (and perhaps day-filling) for people who seem genuinely happy to avail themselves of the income opportunity provided. I see no reason to think that those two companies could…

They may add value vs taxis, but would Uber or Lyft add value vs any other startup taxi service? Expanding further, How about a taxi-app you and I could sit down and hack out? How much value-add is there in an Uber or Lyft vs what we could do?

Doesn't Flywheel already own that space?

Re: Oracle’s Larry Ellison Calls Uber and WeWork ‘Almost Worthless’

#84

Post by [deleted] »

jgwil2 wrote: post #3

Neither of these companies is actually adding any value at all as far as I can tell. Uber is undercutting taxis/transit with investor-subsidized rides and still has no idea how it's going to turn a profit unless it becomes the only ride in town. WeWork is pure middleman with some good branding. It amazes me that people believe these valuations. However, I can't agree with the cat comment; I'm sure Uber engineering ar…

[deleted]

Re: Oracle’s Larry Ellison Calls Uber and WeWork ‘Almost Worthless’

#85

Post by sonr »

Uber provides great value to people like me who can't afford the burden of having a car and driving and only need a car maybe 20% of the time for various occasions. However, if Uber had to charge rates that would make them a real profit, people like me will simply no longer be able to afford it. We would go back to walking, biking, or taking the bus.

Just my 2 cents here.

Re: Oracle’s Larry Ellison Calls Uber and WeWork ‘Almost Worthless’

#86

Post by 35787 »

Apocryphon wrote: post #82
35787 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should trust neither. You should think for yourself. Nobody seems to be able to do it anymore. Look, you don’t need a paper or a PhD to understand this: When I was driving, I got paid roughly 60c per mile and then got more for time, a one time fee and tips. But baseline 60c per mile. It costs 20c to 25c per mile to drive a Toyota Corolla. Yes, that includes all expenses. It’s the cost of insurance and gas and the…

Would you tell them to think for themselves even if they happened to be agreeing with you?

There are so many layers of nuance that your comment glosses over that I find it hard to answer. It depends on why they agree with me. Do they agree with me because they were an Uber driver too? Because they did the math? Because they believe anything they read? In the context of agreeing with me, have they made it obvious whether or not they checked this conclusion On their own? Do they provide the reason they agree with me? Is this agreement a comment or simply an upvote? Be more specific.

Re: Oracle’s Larry Ellison Calls Uber and WeWork ‘Almost Worthless’

#87

Post by Gibbon1 »

35787 wrote: post #72
im_cynical wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard some economist call Uber "the greatest transfer of wealth in a very long time". What Uber is doing is taking investors money and subsidizing your Uber ride to a restaurant. They are providing value and I'm a casual user myself. However the consumer price right now is arguably unsustainable against the stated quote above. To survive both of them are going to have to raise prices

This is not true. Uber drivers make tons of money. I know because I was one. The press put a microscope on the subset of drivers who are stupid and can’t make money because they run their businesses poorly. The press is happy to let them tell their son stories but what they don’t mention is that those drivers refuse to drive anywhere outside their immediate area, they drive huge shitty cars that cost literally ten ti…

> The press put a microscope on the subset of drivers who are stupid and can’t make money because they run their businesses poorly.

Which very likely is the vast majority of drivers. Subtract those and we're back to ordinary cab, pizza delivery levels of service. Probably less.

Re: Oracle’s Larry Ellison Calls Uber and WeWork ‘Almost Worthless’

#88

Post by berbec »

WhompingWindows wrote: post #21
sokoloff wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Uber (and Lyft) are absolutely adding value. I now regularly take ride shares when I would previously have driven or extremely reluctantly taken cabs. I also talk to my rideshare drivers and the platforms provide some much needed cashflow (and perhaps day-filling) for people who seem genuinely happy to avail themselves of the income opportunity provided. I see no reason to think that those two companies could…

They may add value vs taxis, but would Uber or Lyft add value vs any other startup taxi service? Expanding further, How about a taxi-app you and I could sit down and hack out? How much value-add is there in an Uber or Lyft vs what we could do?

Be careful, you're suspiciously close to saying the uber is nothing more than FTP, curlftpfs and CVS. [1] I'm not arguing that Uber is worth it value, but dismissing the tech & usability involved is a treacherous road to go down.

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224

Re: Oracle’s Larry Ellison Calls Uber and WeWork ‘Almost Worthless’

#89

Post by otakucode »

pfranz wrote: post #67
otakucode wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see with Uber is that, at the end of things, all they provide is some software running on some servers. While not an easy weekend project, it would not be impossible for a distributed system to replace it, making whatever life they have almost certainly temporary. Every action they take to extract more profit will only increase the pressure toward development and move towards a distributed system. As lo…

> The problem I see with Uber is that, at the end of things, all they provide is some software running on some servers. That's true, and this isn't an argument for the bad things they do, but they did force the taxi industry forward a few decades. Prior to Uber/Lyft, taxis in most areas were outright hostile. I had called to schedule a taxi ride the day before and had them no-show. It was so common for taxis to feign…

I didn't mention anything about other things they've done, I'm just looking at what the organization actually provides to the market. While it is true that they did all of the things you mentioned, that is unfortunately what's known as First Mover Disadvantage. They pave the way, and now anyone can crop up and make use of the tough road they laid down.

McDonald's is popular, at least this is what I was told in business courses, because people like familiarity and they know when they get a meal at a McDonald's it's going to be mostly the same everywhere. Uber doesn't really enjoy that. They do enjoy that it is a unified app and service no matter where you are, they have that going for them for a certainty, but they do not have control over their drivers to the level at which McDonald's has control over their franchisees. That's down to the fact their drivers are independent contractors, although it likely couldn't work any other way. It might be moot since the service is the same, getting from point A to B, so the part people want stays the same.

I would almost be inclined to see it as Uber being more valuable for their management of driver reputations than the software they provide, really. They set a standard, and hold drivers somewhat accountable to that standard, which is something that a more 'open' solution would make very difficult or impossible to do.

Re: Oracle’s Larry Ellison Calls Uber and WeWork ‘Almost Worthless’

#90

Post by pfranz »

otakucode wrote: post #89
pfranz wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem I see with Uber is that, at the end of things, all they provide is some software running on some servers. That's true, and this isn't an argument for the bad things they do, but they did force the taxi industry forward a few decades. Prior to Uber/Lyft, taxis in most areas were outright hostile. I had called to schedule a taxi ride the day before and had them no-show. It was so common for taxis to feign…

I didn't mention anything about other things they've done, I'm just looking at what the organization actually provides to the market. While it is true that they did all of the things you mentioned, that is unfortunately what's known as First Mover Disadvantage. They pave the way, and now anyone can crop up and make use of the tough road they laid down. McDonald's is popular, at least this is what I was told in busine…

Admittedly, I was venting over inaction of the taxi industry to innovate. While I do think other competitors, like Lyft, can do those things I'm skeptical if the legacy industry could catch up even if the way has been paved. I imagine the ideal would be a "platform" that gets sold regionally.

Like McDonalds, at least for travelers (or, well, me) having the app already installed and setup with a form of payment is huge. I've visited cities, like Austin, when they didn't have Lift/Uber and figuring out their "local service" was rough. You've landed at an airport and likely don't have great service. To seek and download and register a new app is a big burden. It's also why using a credit card internationally is much less hassle than getting local currency.

"Apps" and "services" are ubiquitous, but incumbents are pretty terrible at them. Large organizations like Apple, Playstation, or Obamacare have had rocky launches of services--they had more incentives to polish things later. Often those services would go down completely Christmas morning. Many apps like my local bank or library, have terrible apps. That's how I imagine legacy or regional taxis responding to Uber.

It's been over a decade and a lot of those features weren't that novel at the time. I've heard of a few cities internally having decent apps, but it hasn't been that wide spread. Maybe that will change?

Post reply on HN