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Air Travel Emissions Vastly Outpace Predictions

nytimes.com

271–280 of 325 posts

Re: Air Travel Emissions Vastly Outpace Predictions

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you need to travel long distances, there's little substitute for an airplane. The emphasis here isn't on substitute, it's on "need". Not many people need to travel long distances on a regular basis; they're just made to believe they need do.

People traveling, the tourism that is so often bemoaned, is a huge part of the connections between countries, a huge part of diversity and understanding. A world with greatly reduced air travel is a more insular and less understanding world.

The idea "travel == enlightenment and understanding" is sadly far from the reality. It once was true, insomuch as the privilege to travel was correlated with wealth which was correlated with education - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Tour

It's hard to disambiguate the causality, but it is probably fair to say that prior to the global information economy it took literally seeing the world to learn certain things. Of course, it also was/is fun for many, and projects power, wealth, and status.

But today with globally available information, truly frequent travelers (the ones with the most impact) arguably are really just doing it for status (and/or maybe trying to flee the inexorable inner void of the human psyche via endless novelty and distraction). More occasional travelers often pursue curated tourism experiences, and would gain more understanding from a book or even documentary.

Is there something ineffable about "smelling the Sistine chapel"? Possibly - but no more ineffable than appreciating the beauty right in your neck of the woods. Do you need to experience diversity in culture, race, and history? Absolutely - and it can be done firsthand in plenty of major cities around the world.

At least a bit of travel arguably is still good for education and appreciation. But the frequent travelers (who are oh-so-frequently tech employees), the ones who are constantly hopping on a plane to somewhere, are not really gaining anything intrinsic, and are exercising a huge footprint. And if anything, by devoting so much time and energy to travel, they tend to neglect their actual learning and education in other ways.

Re: Air Travel Emissions Vastly Outpace Predictions

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone in sales, I think I would be EXTREMELY supportive of all of my competition deciding to do the eco conscious thing, and declining to fly to clients. It'd be great. No chance that businesses will stop paying for people to travel. And their budgets are much bigger than individuals visiting family. Take a look at the entire private jet market - basically a very small wedge of HNWs and lots of executives flying…

Yeah, it'd be great, until your clients stop viewing it as a noble thing and start seeing it as a disgusting and wasteful thing. Then your competition will be happier than you. People's expectations are malleable. It's not easy to change them, but it's necessary and it's possible. And once that happens, the game will change, and it will force you to change your tune accordingly.

I'll happily take the opposite side of that bet.

Re: Air Travel Emissions Vastly Outpace Predictions

#273
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you learned nothing from the movie "Snowpiercer"?

The silly dystopian arguments against climate engineering are facile. Do you think the first attempt will be done at global scale? No, it will be done first at small scale, and then larger and larger. There is no reasonable scenario in which we would be surprised by the impact of climate engineering.

Not that I was serious in any way. But since we're talking about it, I am not convinced that our societies are able to coordinate an effort like that on a scale that would make a difference to the global climate.

Maybe I'm unaware of relevant history, maybe I'm being too cynical.

Re: Air Travel Emissions Vastly Outpace Predictions

#274
post #136

If you need to travel long distances, there's little substitute for an airplane. If air travel accounts for less emissions than passenger cars, and if the top 15 polluting large container ships produce as much (noxious oxides of nitrogen and sulphur) pollution as all cars, then we need to fix shipping first. And if you look at a lot of the crap that is being shipped, it's stuff we just don't need. A lot of things are…

Shipping is the single most efficient way to move anything, followed by trains.

Re: Air Travel Emissions Vastly Outpace Predictions

#275

One thing that's very important to keep in mind when looking at air travel emissions is how fuel efficient planes actually are. The math works out to around 100 miles per gallon per passenger. And at an underwhelming 2.5% of global emissions, I can't really put it in the category of "low hanging fruit." That's not to say that we shouldn't invest in things like high speed rail, (because we absolutely will see quality…

The manual choice of what is low-hanging fruit is a path to failure. Instead, we should just tax the emission of the dangerous substance. So today, we'll do CO2. After a while, we'll include CH4. Then with a total cap on carbon, we allow the market to trade the right to carbon. This will allow money to flow to the right places.

If your implementation means that a person in the third world cannot afford a fire to cook meals but a person in the first world can afford a huge fire pit for cooking marshmallows I would say you are well on your way to creating a dystopia. But hey perhaps they could pay for their emissions using those digital microloans!

Re: Air Travel Emissions Vastly Outpace Predictions

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone in sales, I think I would be EXTREMELY supportive of all of my competition deciding to do the eco conscious thing, and declining to fly to clients. It'd be great. No chance that businesses will stop paying for people to travel. And their budgets are much bigger than individuals visiting family. Take a look at the entire private jet market - basically a very small wedge of HNWs and lots of executives flying…

Yeah, it'd be great, until your clients stop viewing it as a noble thing and start seeing it as a disgusting and wasteful thing. Then your competition will be happier than you. People's expectations are malleable. It's not easy to change them, but it's necessary and it's possible. And once that happens, the game will change, and it will force you to change your tune accordingly.

It needs to be viewed as distasteful as holding sales meetings in a strip club.

Re: Air Travel Emissions Vastly Outpace Predictions

#277
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Do you not realize that you sound absolutely unhinged? Or is that your schtick?

When someone questions authority, consensus, it is pretty much obvious to anyone that they are taking on a task which exposes them to ridicule.

People who are willing to take on this task -- which is no more but a simple expression of ideas -- have even gotten themselves killed.

Ideas which can be expressed as I did in above comments with no more than a sarcastic statement of a couple of facts and yet even still be received as being so offensive and "unhinged" by peers -- are always ideas which clearly do not stand on their own. Otherwise, stating a couple of facts would not be so offensive to you that you responded aggressively and irrationally with ad hominen attacks.

When groupthink and authority do this to people like you it is truly terrible but still just normal and part of human nature. The world is not nice to its Thomas Paines and Helmuth Hubeners, even though it would be a much worse place without them. Though I'd rather take any chance that I be in their company than the likes of people who throughout history tolerate abuse, evil, lies and wrongdoing. Or worse, ridicule those who question it.

Re: Air Travel Emissions Vastly Outpace Predictions

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it'd be great, until your clients stop viewing it as a noble thing and start seeing it as a disgusting and wasteful thing. Then your competition will be happier than you. People's expectations are malleable. It's not easy to change them, but it's necessary and it's possible. And once that happens, the game will change, and it will force you to change your tune accordingly.

I'll happily take the opposite side of that bet.

The opposite side of that bet? So you won't change your tune and you'll happily continue to do this even after your clients find it disgusting? Be my guest I guess...

Re: Air Travel Emissions Vastly Outpace Predictions

#279

One thing that's very important to keep in mind when looking at air travel emissions is how fuel efficient planes actually are. The math works out to around 100 miles per gallon per passenger. And at an underwhelming 2.5% of global emissions, I can't really put it in the category of "low hanging fruit." That's not to say that we shouldn't invest in things like high speed rail, (because we absolutely will see quality…

There’s a simple metric: how much you spend on petrol versus paying for flights.

Re: Air Travel Emissions Vastly Outpace Predictions

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be great if more people did this. In my opinion, air travel is pretty low hanging fruit when it comes reducing personal carbon footprints. I'll spend some time closer to home rather than hopping across the ocean/continent for every vacation.

I think getting an electric car is even lower hanging. No change in lifestyle, a similar total cost of ownership, but a factor of 2.5-3x lower emissions with even the current grid (and effectively zero emissions in the future grid we'll need anyway). (Plus now you can go on emissions-free road trips.)

Replacing something that still works and isn’t all that old with a new, more energy-efficient product rarely yields a net reduction in emissions. That new thing need to be produced, and production is often a major component of lifecycle emissions.
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