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French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

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Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#121

Post by shadowgovt »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #107
shadowgovt wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's the problem of needing escrow for selling the game in that scenario; if, say, they implement game resale as "You can ask Steam to cut your access and give you a unique code someone else can enter to gain access," there's the problem that if I buy that code from you, I have no knowledge of if it'll actually work when I get home (maybe you sold it twice?). ... and then Steam can offer payment via their in-store…

Not Valve's problem. Valve is not obligated to provide a framework that makes reselling games safe and easy, they just need to allow the transfer.

Not problem; opportunity.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#122

Post by jeroenhd »

dageshi wrote: post #113
jeroenhd wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Valve prefers not selling games in the EU to implementing a way to sell second hand games, sure. Remember that the French court is referencing EU law. This basically means that the practice is forbidden across the entire EU based on current jurisdiction. It's possible for Valve to introduce pay-as-you-go games, but doing so would probably violate the contract under which previously sold games were sold. This means…

I think this could get interesting. Would valve be legally required to offer their services (game download + cloud saves) to a second hand buyer? Surely the person selling the game would need to provide the second hand buyer the copy of the game along with the key? Valve merely provides a service which says "this key now belongs to this account" but that second hand buyer has no right to download from valve?

I'd say yes. The steam key comes with a set of perks that made the buyer pick steam as a reseller over one of their competitors. Removing those features would degrade the value of the product and, in my opinion, be a measure to prevent proper resale of the product.

When I buy a key, I don't somehow get the download to my computer before adding it to my Steam account. Steam designed their system in such a way that the installer has to come from them, and that you can't burn an installer that only works with your key.

Imagine buying a chair with massage functionality and a GPS tracker that stops working when you move it outside your house. In my opinion, even though the chair itself remains functional, the added DRM would prevent someone from selling the chair second hand, because the main reason you buy the chair has suddenly been disabled by a third party.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#123

Post by _edo »

jeroenhd wrote: post #96
_edo wrote: post #48

With laws like this you generally have to ask what's best for the consumer. I'm not sure reselling is. The current setup gives game developers a somewhat predictable revenue model and on the strength of that model they can encourage investors to put up money to make the games. Changing the revenue model may change how investors look at the market. Maybe for better maybe for worse. Who knows, but it would be a disrupt…

Funny how you can make the same comment about physical goods. Should we ban selling second hand furniture? With laws like this you generally have to ask what's best for the consumer. I'm not sure reselling is. The current setup gives furniture salesmen a somewhat predictable revenue model and on the strength of the model they can encourage investors to put ip money to make furniture. Changing the revenue model may ch…

> Funny how you can make the same comment about physical goods.

No, you can't. That's why this is such a complicated issue.

The inherent value in a physical good is consumed with use. If somebody buys a couch and takes it home it becomes a used couch. Used couches are not great substitutes for new couches; they devalue with time and use and you eventually have to pay somebody just to take it off your hands. Its value actually goes negative.

A used digital good is a perfect substitute for the original. A digital copy is also a perfect substitute for the original. That changes everything. If we want people to be able to make games professionally, and to be compensated for their work, we have to use laws to make the digital marketplace resemble the physical goods marketplace. Or find a whole new model which I don't believe anybody has done.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#124

Post by uremog »

shadowgovt wrote: post #77
tinalumfoil wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont see why they would need to create the marketplace themselves. Why couldn't they just let users convert purchased titles back into keys and then sell them on tons of third party key sellers that already exist?

They could. ... but they could also offer the option of doing that, but alternatively just letting you transact the game to another Steam user directly, using the in-store currency (with an x% shaved off the top) for the cost of Steam basically working as an escrow service (to guarantee you haven't done something like converted to a key and then sold that key twice). If doing so is fully compliant with the law, I pre…

I wonder what the highest x% is that the courts would accept as not totally bs. I'm pretty sure if Steam said, oh yeah, you can re-sell within Steam but we'll just take 99% lol, that would not be ok.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#125

Post by cameronbrown »

UserIsUnused wrote: post #118
cameronbrown wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is it's not forced on to developers like some platforms do, hint Epic Games Store. Edit: Not true . I know a plethora of people who support only Steam on principle alone. Not only have they been kind to the Linux community but they've so far held up their end of the bargain when it comes to Steam. Valve's willingness to uphold free speech (while accepting all the downsides like negative brand attention) also…

If you want to support a platform based on a DRM-free point of view, you should only buy from GOG. The only ethical platform.

Though I don't consider DRM-free the only metric for being ethical (being one of the few platforms to really support Linux, contributing back to OSS including the Linux Kernel itself, pushing free and open standards for VR, etc.. are all reasons I support Valve), I really appreciate and support GOG too.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#126

Post by jeroenhd »

ineedasername wrote: post #115
jeroenhd wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? It's perfectly legal in the EU to sell any digital goods second hand as long as you stop using the software you sold.

I didn't realize that! Though in researching it, I found that the law allowing resell is somewhat linked to the original install media, i.e., you couldn't sell the license key and a backup copy. I don't see any EU cases that square this with digital distribution, but maybe this current ruling will provide guidance on that issue.

There was the famous Oracle vs UsedSoft lawsuit: https://www.theverge.com/2012/7/3/3134867/eu-court-of-justic...

This basically added jurisprudence that digital downloads can be resold provided that the original is made unusable.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#127

Post by golergka »

archi42 wrote: post #22
golergka wrote: post #14

This is absurd. When I buy a game on Steam, I fully understand that it doesn't have any resale value – and I easily agree to this deal, because I choose to forgo resale rights so I can get the game cheaper. But now this court have effectively destroyed my freedom to make this choice as a customer. And to add insult to injury, it's done this under the pretense of defending my rights, as if I'm an idiot who's not capab…

For some titles there is no option to get a "resale allowed version". E.g. I bought a retail version of Borderlands 2 several years ago on DVD (long time post release, was like 20 Euro in a local games store). Well, turned out that DVD basically was a Steam Installer plus key (of course, that's a decision made by the publisher). Also, "so I can get the game cheaper" - do you? When I buy a newly released game on Steam…

> Also, "so I can get the game cheaper" - do you? When I buy a newly released game on Steam it's usually in the 50 to 60 Euro range.

It's about 30 in my region.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#128

Post by cameronbrown »

UserIsUnused wrote: post #116
cameronbrown wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steam's DRM isn't technical, it's the community and platform itself. Any technical restrictions are completely optional.

What do you mean by technical?

Technical restrictions like online activation. While Steam does support these features, they're not the reason the platform is so sticky. It's because the community, features and sales are attractive to consumers. Most people don't feel like their games are held hostage by Steam. If they went DRM-free I do believe they'd stay just as popular.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#130

Post by justinclift »

shadowgovt wrote: post #56

If this ruling is accepted, it's going to go a bit further than "can't ban," right? AFAIK right now, there's no infrastructure for transferring one's games on Steam from one user to another (apart from, say, selling the password to one's Steam account). So would compliance of the ruling imply Steam has to build some kind of digital marketplace infrastructure to allow for licenses to be resold?

There are games in my Steam account I don't play any more, and I'd be happy to sell them, or even just gift them to friends.

Hoping the capability to do so does get added. :)

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