The Infinite Silences of Japan
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The Infinite Silences of Japan
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Re: The Infinite Silences of Japan
#2I read this from my chair in an office in Tokyo, and found it to be pretty dramatic and kind of silly. There are definitely cultural differences, but I don't feel like this article does a good job of representing them. Some of the linguistic points are a bit misleading too.
Re: The Infinite Silences of Japan
#3......
Re: The Infinite Silences of Japan
#4When reading any of Pico Iyer's drivel about Japan, remember that he can't read or speak the language:
"And the virtues of when I got to Japan, finding that I was essentially an illiterate. I can't read — I can't — to this day, I can't read or write Japanese."
http://www.dailygood.org/story/1092/the-art-of-stillness-pic...
"He’s a big proponent of his own ignorance, saying he doesn’t choose to learn more than a smattering of Japanese because he needs mystery and “a sense of open space in life, something to offset the sense of the familiar.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/22/books/review/pico-iyer-au...
Which makes him exceptionally unqualified to spout bullshit like this:
A single verb in Yasunari Kawabata’s short novel Snow Country is translated in 29 different ways because what we would render as “I think” can in Japan mean “I remember,” “I long for” or 27 other things.
No, おもう means two things, and they're written differently so you can tell them apart:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%81%8A%E3%82%82%E3%81%86#J...
Re: The Infinite Silences of Japan
#5When reading any of Pico Iyer's drivel about Japan, remember that he can't read or speak the language: "And the virtues of when I got to Japan, finding that I was essentially an illiterate. I can't read — I can't — to this day, I can't read or write Japanese." http://www.dailygood.org/story/1092/the-art-of-stillness-pic... "He’s a big proponent of his own ignorance, saying he doesn’t choose to learn more than a smatt…
The breathless retelling struck me as unreliable as well, but I can concede that 思う has slightly different meanings based on context— just like any English word with a thesaurus entry or used in idiom.
思う/Omou is interesting because my brain shuffled it into the same spot as the Spanish creer (to believe) and both have a counterpart that is (roughly) more about thought process: kangaeru(JP)/pensar(ES)
The similarity meant 思う actually grounded me instead of sending me into linguistic mysticism like it apparently did to Iyer.
Re: The Infinite Silences of Japan
#6When reading any of Pico Iyer's drivel about Japan, remember that he can't read or speak the language: "And the virtues of when I got to Japan, finding that I was essentially an illiterate. I can't read — I can't — to this day, I can't read or write Japanese." http://www.dailygood.org/story/1092/the-art-of-stillness-pic... "He’s a big proponent of his own ignorance, saying he doesn’t choose to learn more than a smatt…
The breathless retelling struck me as unreliable as well, but I can concede that 思う has slightly different meanings based on context— just like any English word with a thesaurus entry or used in idiom. 思う/Omou is interesting because my brain shuffled it into the same spot as the Spanish creer (to believe) and both have a counterpart that is (roughly) more about thought process: kangaeru(JP)/pensar(ES) The similarity…
"Believe", in a faith without proof sense, is shinjiru 信じる in Japanese. As in English, this is a lot stronger than mere thinking.
Omou is used a lot in Japanese as a politeness marker of sorts: instead of stating flat out that the moon is green cheese (tsuki ha guriin chiizu desu), you soften the statement a bit saying that you think it's green cheese (tsuki ha guriin chiizu da to omoimasu). When translating to English, you'd often drop it entirely or at least find other ways to express it, because in English it's not natural to tack "I think" to everything you say.
Re: The Infinite Silences of Japan
#7When reading any of Pico Iyer's drivel about Japan, remember that he can't read or speak the language: "And the virtues of when I got to Japan, finding that I was essentially an illiterate. I can't read — I can't — to this day, I can't read or write Japanese." http://www.dailygood.org/story/1092/the-art-of-stillness-pic... "He’s a big proponent of his own ignorance, saying he doesn’t choose to learn more than a smatt…
> No, おもう means two things, and they're written differently so you can tell them apart
君のことを思っている You're on my mind.
思うどおりにはいかなかった It didn't go how she had hoped.
面倒だと思ったことがないよ I've not really ever felt it to be a hassle.
Context matters.
> Which makes him exceptionally unqualified to...
He's waxing poetically about his personal experience. Not sure who else would be more qualified to do that.
Excuse me a bit of a meta-comment. Why such a vicious response? A priori, the article stands on its own. It sounds to me like you're bringing in a lot of personal expectations and imposing them on someone that never asked. Bad day, perhaps? If you need a beer or a listening ear, feel free to PM me.
Re: The Infinite Silences of Japan
#8When reading any of Pico Iyer's drivel about Japan, remember that he can't read or speak the language: "And the virtues of when I got to Japan, finding that I was essentially an illiterate. I can't read — I can't — to this day, I can't read or write Japanese." http://www.dailygood.org/story/1092/the-art-of-stillness-pic... "He’s a big proponent of his own ignorance, saying he doesn’t choose to learn more than a smatt…
> No, おもう means two things, and they're written differently so you can tell them apart 君のことを思っている You're on my mind. 思うどおりにはいかなかった It didn't go how she had hoped. 面倒だと思ったことがないよ I've not really ever felt it to be a hassle. Context matters. > Which makes him exceptionally unqualified to... He's waxing poetically about his personal experience. Not sure who else would be more qualified to do that. Excuse me a bit of a me…
Not a bad day, just a pet peeve: I find the "Japanese is so exotic and mysterious and different" trope in general and Pico Iyer's writing about the topic in particular insufferable. I mean, if you're going to pontificate about Japanese literature on the world stage, is it really too much to ask that you read some of it?
Languages are complicated, translation between two languages is even more complicated. Does Japanese have "weird" features compared to English? Sure, adjectives having past and conditional tenses still does my head in. But claiming that omou has 29 radically different meanings is wrong, and using this to draw the conclusion that "Speech is dangerous in Japan" is just silly.
Re: The Infinite Silences of Japan
#9Earlier quoted context omitted.
> No, おもう means two things, and they're written differently so you can tell them apart 君のことを思っている You're on my mind. 思うどおりにはいかなかった It didn't go how she had hoped. 面倒だと思ったことがないよ I've not really ever felt it to be a hassle. Context matters. > Which makes him exceptionally unqualified to... He's waxing poetically about his personal experience. Not sure who else would be more qualified to do that. Excuse me a bit of a me…
Not a bad day, just a pet peeve: I find the "Japanese is so exotic and mysterious and different" trope in general and Pico Iyer's writing about the topic in particular insufferable. I mean, if you're going to pontificate about Japanese literature on the world stage, is it really too much to ask that you read some of it? Languages are complicated, translation between two languages is even more complicated. Does Japane…
I'd like to chime in on 9nGQluzmnq3M's side here -- I had exactly the same reaction for exactly the same reason. It does Japan's complex culture a complete disservice to wrap it up in a neat package of "exotic" and "ineffable." You wouldn't accept an analysis of fine wine, a new medication, or graphics cards from someone who didn't bother to learn about them, so why is an analysis of an entire culture from an equally ignorant standpoint acceptable?
Is it acceptable because "being an outsider" gives him a more "objective" viewpoint? So, his ignorance gives birth to wisdom?
Or is it acceptable because Japan has a history of being labeled "ineffable" and "exotic," meaning that nobody not Japanese can ever understand Japanese culture, so anyone can say whatever they want?
Anyone who starts claiming that there's a connection between "numbers of meanings [e.g. ways to translate a word into ANOTHER language]" and culture immediately starts setting off alarms in my head, but the Language Log sums that up much better than I ever could: https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1088
Re: The Infinite Silences of Japan
#10When reading any of Pico Iyer's drivel about Japan, remember that he can't read or speak the language: "And the virtues of when I got to Japan, finding that I was essentially an illiterate. I can't read — I can't — to this day, I can't read or write Japanese." http://www.dailygood.org/story/1092/the-art-of-stillness-pic... "He’s a big proponent of his own ignorance, saying he doesn’t choose to learn more than a smatt…
> A single verb in Yasunari Kawabata’s short novel Snow Country is translated in 29 different ways because what we would render as “I think” can in Japan mean “I remember,” “I long for” or 27 other things.
Ugh. That might be correct in the sense that a translator could defend their choice in using a certain English word or another, but that's also correct for most words in literally every language spoken on Earth.