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Birds Are Vanishing from North America

nytimes.com

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Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#231

Post by krapp »

UnFleshedOne wrote: post #228
gerbilly wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That makes it sound like there's some kind of natural 'ideal state' for the planet to recover to. If you want to know what the natural state for an area is, ask a native person from a population that has un uninterrupted culture, that is if you can find one. A native person I know often describes a discorded ecosystem by saying: "The land is sick." To equivocate and to claim all states are equally natural, is to de…

Chinese are "native people from a population that has un-uninterrupted culture". Not too great at preserving environment (reportedly improving lately I think). Idea of a "noble savage" is a myth that is about as racist as it's opposite.

>Chinese are "native people from a population that has un-uninterrupted culture".

Didn't they interrupt their culture with extreme prejudice like fifty-odd years ago?

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#232

Post by gerbilly »

UnFleshedOne wrote: post #228
gerbilly wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That makes it sound like there's some kind of natural 'ideal state' for the planet to recover to. If you want to know what the natural state for an area is, ask a native person from a population that has un uninterrupted culture, that is if you can find one. A native person I know often describes a discorded ecosystem by saying: "The land is sick." To equivocate and to claim all states are equally natural, is to de…

Chinese are "native people from a population that has un-uninterrupted culture". Not too great at preserving environment (reportedly improving lately I think). Idea of a "noble savage" is a myth that is about as racist as it's opposite.

Don't sling epithets.

My using the word 'native' was a proxy for a type of culture: a close to the land hunter gatherer lifestyle. You know one that would necessarily make them keen observers of their natural environment.

I could have said aboriginal, but maybe you'll take offence to that too?

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#233

Post by rectang »

refurb wrote: post #229
arbitrary_name wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Was the beetle introduced to the area by humans (which is the case for a number of pests) 2) Were the trees killed made susceptible to the beetle because of heat stress, possibly caused by human driven climate change? (this is the case for some large scale infestations) Overall, the point is; yes, where imbalances in nature are triggered by natural causes, there is no issue with that (earthquake, hurricane, long t…

I’m challenging the predominant belief that anything humans do is “bad and unnatural” and anything animals do is “good and natural”, even though man is just as natural as any other organism on earth. That premise doesn’t really hold up to rationale examination. To continue the thought experiment, if the beetle infection was not due to any impact of humans, should we try and stop it to preserve the forests? By the abo…

The universe is indifferent. Humans don't have to be.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#234

Post by m463 »

Yhippa wrote: post #156

This is one of the saddest things I've read in a long time. Birds are amazing. It's amazing to me that they are the descendants of dinosaurs and they're all around us. Their songs and plumage are beautiful to me. > Grassland species have suffered the biggest declines by far, having lost 717 million birds. These birds have probably been decimated by modern agriculture and development. This one I'm not totally sure is…

They are basically the only higher form of wildlife everyone experiences on a daily basis, even in very urban environments.

It's not until the suburbs with trees that you start seeing squirrels and larger animals.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#235

Post by weberc2 »

m463 wrote: post #234
Yhippa wrote: post #156

This is one of the saddest things I've read in a long time. Birds are amazing. It's amazing to me that they are the descendants of dinosaurs and they're all around us. Their songs and plumage are beautiful to me. > Grassland species have suffered the biggest declines by far, having lost 717 million birds. These birds have probably been decimated by modern agriculture and development. This one I'm not totally sure is…

They are basically the only higher form of wildlife everyone experiences on a daily basis, even in very urban environments. It's not until the suburbs with trees that you start seeing squirrels and larger animals.

Chicago has squirrels everywhere except for the loop. And there are rats absolutely everywhere too! I imagine it’s similar in most US cities.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#238

Post by hnick »

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #45
bsmitty5000 wrote: post #2

This article doesn't mention the declining insect population at all but I would think it's clear that a quickly declining food source would be a major cause of population decline. I wonder if there's a similar decline in other animals that rely on insects, eg bats. Although, interestingly, the article does mention neonicotinoids as a direct reason for the decline in population. It's hard to imagine humans taking the…

...we die out and the planet recovers on its own. I like to think that the point of humanity is to destroy as many genetic lines as possible, before going extinct ourselves. A trial by fire that weeds out all but the most resilient. Eventually evolving into new, even better intelligence.

Well, there are different types of resilient. Many domesticated animals and livestock will outlive their wild counterparts because they're useful to us - but the day we go, I'm not so sure how well they will do!

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#239

Post by RoutinePlayer »

davinic wrote: post #115
Feuilles_Mortes wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Engineering solutions to combat or circumvent Climate Change is our ONLY way forward. I think that this perspective ignores the environmental problems inherent in a capitalist mode of production, and in fact plays into them. I think that a political revolution could be imminent, and I would urge those concerned about the future of life on this planet to consider alternative modes of economics.

I disagree. One could change the capitalist model to account and be liable for all externalities and to tax/penalize those firms/countries who refuse to.

Right. Something along those lines is what we should be striving for.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#240

Post by RoutinePlayer »

coliveira wrote: post #106
Feuilles_Mortes wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Engineering solutions to combat or circumvent Climate Change is our ONLY way forward. I think that this perspective ignores the environmental problems inherent in a capitalist mode of production, and in fact plays into them. I think that a political revolution could be imminent, and I would urge those concerned about the future of life on this planet to consider alternative modes of economics.

Capitalism is based on infinite growth (economists even laugh at people like Malthus who proposed otherwise) and on fungibility of values (money is green no matter where from). This basically leads to a necessity of destroying nature for the sake of realizing economic growth. We need at least start to take seriously the fact that, the way capitalist economy is conducted, there is no way forward to save the environmen…

What form of "Capitalism"? The unfettered type that sits all the way to the right of the spectrum (that does't exist, because it would only last a few hours), or the overly regulated one all the way on the left of the spectrum?
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