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Birds Are Vanishing from North America

nytimes.com

211–220 of 372 posts

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#211

This article doesn't mention the declining insect population at all but I would think it's clear that a quickly declining food source would be a major cause of population decline. I wonder if there's a similar decline in other animals that rely on insects, eg bats. Although, interestingly, the article does mention neonicotinoids as a direct reason for the decline in population. It's hard to imagine humans taking the…

> or we die out and the planet recovers on its own. That makes it sound like there's some kind of natural 'ideal state' for the planet to recover to. Without us, the planet would just go on changing, without anything to judge the current environment at any point as good or bad to any particular standard. Saving the environment is simply saving ourselves. Nothing more, nothing less.

> That makes it sound like there's some kind of natural 'ideal state' for the planet to recover to.

If you want to know what the natural state for an area is, ask a native person from a population that has un uninterrupted culture, that is if you can find one.

A native person I know often describes a discorded ecosystem by saying: "The land is sick."

To equivocate and to claim all states are equally natural, is to deliberately miss the point.

A healthy ecosystem—and most of us haven't ever seen one—is obviously healthy when you see it.

It's a tautology to say that everything is natural. You could argue that plutonium and dioxin are natural, but without considering the concentration and distribution, it's meaningless semantics.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#212

This apparently isn't a popular opinion, but: this world is precious. I would even go so far as to say miraculous . Until we wake up to this fact, we will continue to ennui ourselves and this world into oblivion. It's hard to prove (or even study), but I believe this is the root cause of all the other tragedies. It is not something we will merely engineer our way out of. We don't like religion (or in many cases, even…

>psychedelics Every "epiphany" that someone has told me they had while on psychedelics has been something that easily could have been come up with a bit of quite time and thought. I have never heard a single story that blew me away or offered anything but mundane "insights" that easily could be gotten other ways. Its time for the "psychedelics" people to come clean and just admit they are simply getting high.

Have you had a psychedelic experience?

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The laws are not generally part of capitalism, but imposed upon it to prevent various harmful activities. Pollution is an example: capitalism itself (the private ownership of the means of production) has no mechanism that could deal with it.

It absolutely has a mechanism - property damage the private ownership of the means of production Is there any reason you're using marxist terminology?

Property damage is a consequence, not a method of prevention? The damage won't necessarily happen at the place of origination.

I'm not sure why you say it's Marxist terminology. It's more or less what Wikipedia uses. Is there another definition that you'd prefer?

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#214
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing when humans build dams, right? We're creating new ecosystems.

The problem is that beavers didn't suddenly start doing that, the ecosystems they live in co-evolved around the existence of beavers. On time scales relevant to evolution, human civilization is happening in an instant and nothing can adapt as fast. The result is a gigantic loss of biodiversity.

Bacteria can mutate quite quickly and wipe out an entire species pretty fast, reducing biodiversity.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or we die out and the planet recovers on its own. That makes it sound like there's some kind of natural 'ideal state' for the planet to recover to. Without us, the planet would just go on changing, without anything to judge the current environment at any point as good or bad to any particular standard. Saving the environment is simply saving ourselves. Nothing more, nothing less.

> Saving the environment is simply saving ourselves I wonder, though... we know, for example, that bees pollinate plants, and that we need plants to be pollinated for our survival. But if the bees die out, we can figure out another technical way to pollinate plants - it might be a pain to carry out, and we might be kicking ourselves for not saving the bees before it got to that point, but it can be done. If it comes…

Nature is a non-linear system, and once things start to collapse, many things will collapse at the same time. We can deal with many challenges, but not at the same time.

Given enough time, perhaps we would be able to work around the disappearance of bees, for example. But that assumes the structure of society can survive that long. Climate change can cause agricultural collapse (due to droughts, floods, blights, etc.), which will lead to food shortage leading to revolts and famine. How many bee pollination researchers will be able to work through that crisis? Governments tend not to survive so well through disasters on the scales we are talking about.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What are the chances that we will get our act together or be able to engineer ourselves out of all of these problems? Engineering is what got us into this problem. Foolish to hope it can get us out.

Rowing the boat got us out this far, it would be foolish to think that rowing the boat could get us back /s

Thermodynamics doesn’t work like that. There’s no undo button.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't believe the number, so they could possibly be wrong, so it's not a cause for concern? That's a lot of jumps to make to get to the case where we don't have to worry. What techniques are they using to count and estimate the birds, and what objections do you take to their methods? Sadly I can't find out as the site is behind a paywall for me.

There's only one jump: I don't trust the data, so I'm not yet concerned by this click-bait title. In this day of clickbait titles, studies that are not reproducible, and suspect motivation for studies, the idea that we can calculate the total number of birds with an error rate of less than 30%, including the fact that some data is 50 years old, doesn't pass my smell test. I would prefer waiting for accurate data rath…

> The analysis, published in the journal Science, is the most exhaustive and ambitious attempt yet to learn what is happening to avian populations.

> A team of researchers from universities, government agencies and nonprofit organizations collaborated on the new study, which combined old and new methods for counting birds.

> Kevin Gaston, a conservation biologist at the University of Exeter

> Hillary Young, a conservation biologist at the University of California, Santa Barbara

> Scott Loss, a conservation biologist at Oklahoma State University

> Kenneth V. Rosenberg, a conservation scientist at Cornell University and the American Bird Conservancy

> Dr. Young, of the University of California, Santa Barbara

> “If we have two data sets showing the same thing, it’s a home run,” said Nicole Michel, a senior quantitative ecologist at the Audubon Society who was not involved in the study.

> Europe is experiencing a similar loss of birds, also among common species, said Dr. Gaston, of the University of Exeter. “The numbers are broadly comparable,” he said.

So all these people are idiots and you know better?

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#218
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beaver dams don't kill off the ecosystem. Tons of other life forms make use of the newly-flooded area. I've personally watched herons perch upon the dam to catch the fish that are now swimming through the now-deeper waterway, for example.

Same thing when humans build dams, right? We're creating new ecosystems.

Get back to me when beavers are causing the extinction of thousands of other species and arguing about how to warn their descendants about radioactive waste.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The laws are not generally part of capitalism, but imposed upon it to prevent various harmful activities. Pollution is an example: capitalism itself (the private ownership of the means of production) has no mechanism that could deal with it.

It absolutely has a mechanism - property damage the private ownership of the means of production Is there any reason you're using marxist terminology?

Pollution is nothing more than a negative externality.

People have measurably shorter lifespans due to coal emissions. We aren’t doing anything about that, so why do you think property will be treated any differently?

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