Amazon orders 100K electric delivery trucks from Rivian • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon orders 100K electric delivery trucks from Rivian

#141

Post by dgacmu » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 10:15 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #118

There is so much pollution that goes into making those vehicles, and all the waste from the batteries that need to be recycled every 8~10 years. This makes no sense from an environment perspective. You're better off buying older vans, that aren't so old they aren't inefficient, and just keep running those. Plus you're talking about more growth and selling more products, which is just more waste. We can't buy ourselve…

You've got it backwards. Electric vehicles have more embodied energy / carbon, but use less to operate, particularly if the electricity source is not coal. Delivery vehicles that have a high duty cycle and start/stop often are a great target for BEVs. It's true that with current tech, a plug-in hybrid may still be better from a CO2 perspective, but fleets also care about the lower maintenance costs that could be provided by electric-only vehicles.

More: http://www.cmu.edu/me/ddl/publications/2010-JMD-Shiau-etal-P...

And in general: https://www.cmu.edu/cit/veg/

Re: Amazon orders 100K electric delivery trucks from Rivian

#142

Post by _AzMoo » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 10:17 PM UTC

dbcurtis wrote: post #130

Am I the only one who finds the spare tire location an absolute deal breaker? You have to unload the payload, and lift up the payload bed floor in order to access the spare. Now, I suppose this doesn't matter much to Amazon. But I have had the experience of being out the back-country where cell phones don't work, miles from a highway, changing a truck tire by myself. If I had to spend 1 or 2 hours unloading the truck…

Can't be too hard to just mount a wheel carrier in the bed, or swinging on the rear, and just use that spot as extra storage though. I don't know a single off-roader who doesn't mod their vehicle in similar ways to make up for perceived shortcomings.

Re: Amazon orders 100K electric delivery trucks from Rivian

#143

Post by rotten » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 10:17 PM UTC

dbcurtis wrote: post #130

Am I the only one who finds the spare tire location an absolute deal breaker? You have to unload the payload, and lift up the payload bed floor in order to access the spare. Now, I suppose this doesn't matter much to Amazon. But I have had the experience of being out the back-country where cell phones don't work, miles from a highway, changing a truck tire by myself. If I had to spend 1 or 2 hours unloading the truck…

Many new cars don't come with spare tires any more, so at least they have one.

Re: Amazon orders 100K electric delivery trucks from Rivian

#144

Post by thfuran » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 10:18 PM UTC

Brakenshire wrote: post #127

djsumdog wrote: post #118

There is so much pollution that goes into making those vehicles, and all the waste from the batteries that need to be recycled every 8~10 years. This makes no sense from an environment perspective. You're better off buying older vans, that aren't so old they aren't inefficient, and just keep running those. Plus you're talking about more growth and selling more products, which is just more waste. We can't buy ourselve…

Batteries don’t have to be recycled every 8-10 years, nowhere near. If you keep them within temperature and leave a safety margin they’ll outlast the car. There’s already plenty of data for Tesla batteries lasting hundreds of thousands of miles without significant degradation. Look after Lithium Ion batteries and they’re good for 1500 cycles, that’s 300k miles for a 200 mile car, 450k miles for a 300 mile car.

>they’re good for 1500 cycles, that’s 300k miles for a 200 mile car, 450k miles for a 300 mile car

These aren't average cars, they're delivery vehicles meant to be driving rather a lot. Just ball parking here, but 100 miles per day, 6 days a week, 50 weeks a year is 300k miles in 10 years. 8-10 years doesn't seem that off the mark given your numbers.

Re: Amazon orders 100K electric delivery trucks from Rivian

#145

Post by Angostura » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 10:18 PM UTC

dbcurtis wrote: post #130

Am I the only one who finds the spare tire location an absolute deal breaker? You have to unload the payload, and lift up the payload bed floor in order to access the spare. Now, I suppose this doesn't matter much to Amazon. But I have had the experience of being out the back-country where cell phones don't work, miles from a highway, changing a truck tire by myself. If I had to spend 1 or 2 hours unloading the truck…

I understand your annoyance, but these days I carry a can of spray-in gloop for punctures.

Re: Amazon orders 100K electric delivery trucks from Rivian

#146

Post by oh_sigh » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 10:18 PM UTC

_AzMoo wrote: post #142

dbcurtis wrote: post #130

Am I the only one who finds the spare tire location an absolute deal breaker? You have to unload the payload, and lift up the payload bed floor in order to access the spare. Now, I suppose this doesn't matter much to Amazon. But I have had the experience of being out the back-country where cell phones don't work, miles from a highway, changing a truck tire by myself. If I had to spend 1 or 2 hours unloading the truck…

Can't be too hard to just mount a wheel carrier in the bed, or swinging on the rear, and just use that spot as extra storage though. I don't know a single off-roader who doesn't mod their vehicle in similar ways to make up for perceived shortcomings.

Sure, but one begins to wonder how much knowledge this company has of actual usage if they get something this straightforward wrong.

Re: Amazon orders 100K electric delivery trucks from Rivian

#147

Post by greglindahl » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 10:23 PM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #146

_AzMoo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't be too hard to just mount a wheel carrier in the bed, or swinging on the rear, and just use that spot as extra storage though. I don't know a single off-roader who doesn't mod their vehicle in similar ways to make up for perceived shortcomings.

Sure, but one begins to wonder how much knowledge this company has of actual usage if they get something this straightforward wrong.

Didn't someone give a big list of trucks that already do this, last time it came up?

Re: Amazon orders 100K electric delivery trucks from Rivian

#148

Post by jiveturkey » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 10:27 PM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #146

_AzMoo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't be too hard to just mount a wheel carrier in the bed, or swinging on the rear, and just use that spot as extra storage though. I don't know a single off-roader who doesn't mod their vehicle in similar ways to make up for perceived shortcomings.

Sure, but one begins to wonder how much knowledge this company has of actual usage if they get something this straightforward wrong.

If they are targeting sales to a small number of large fleets, this doesn't matter. In fleet operations, the driver will never ever be allowed to change a tire. This is simply not acceptable, insurance-wise. You will dispatch a second truck to handle the delivery and also a tire repair service truck.

An electric delivery truck is probably not even in the cards for small players, where gas or diesel is a better option all around.

Re: Amazon orders 100K electric delivery trucks from Rivian

#149

Post by MisterTea » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 10:31 PM UTC

dbcurtis wrote: post #130

Am I the only one who finds the spare tire location an absolute deal breaker? You have to unload the payload, and lift up the payload bed floor in order to access the spare. Now, I suppose this doesn't matter much to Amazon. But I have had the experience of being out the back-country where cell phones don't work, miles from a highway, changing a truck tire by myself. If I had to spend 1 or 2 hours unloading the truck…

Honestly in this day and age, Amazon is better off having a service company come and change the tire so as to avoid workplace injuries and other liabilities. Most companies are able to bring spares from their stock.

Re: Amazon orders 100K electric delivery trucks from Rivian

#150

Post by Brakenshire » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 10:31 PM UTC

thfuran wrote: post #144

Brakenshire wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batteries don’t have to be recycled every 8-10 years, nowhere near. If you keep them within temperature and leave a safety margin they’ll outlast the car. There’s already plenty of data for Tesla batteries lasting hundreds of thousands of miles without significant degradation. Look after Lithium Ion batteries and they’re good for 1500 cycles, that’s 300k miles for a 200 mile car, 450k miles for a 300 mile car.

>they’re good for 1500 cycles, that’s 300k miles for a 200 mile car, 450k miles for a 300 mile car These aren't average cars, they're delivery vehicles meant to be driving rather a lot. Just ball parking here, but 100 miles per day, 6 days a week, 50 weeks a year is 300k miles in 10 years. 8-10 years doesn't seem that off the mark given your numbers.

In the special case of delivery vehicles that applies. But the high mileage also means a phenomenal reduction in carbon emissions and pollution over those 300k miles.