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Birds Are Vanishing from North America

nytimes.com

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Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#111

Post by isodude »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #41
jjuhl wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. There are too many humans on the planet. Reducing the number would lead to a more sustainable situation. That's just basic logic.

"Reducing" (by means unspecified) sounds uncomfortably close to mass killing. Worse, the logic of the "climate action now" position is that we can't wait for 2050. That will be too late. Well, if you want to reduce the population by 2050, what concrete steps do you propose? (I know, you didn't say 2050. I think "action now" is inherent in the logic of your position, though.)

Reducing could simple as not adding that many more all the time. Increasing the level of global education will have that effect in itself.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#112

Post by monktastic1 »

RoutinePlayer wrote: post #78
monktastic1 wrote: post #36

This apparently isn't a popular opinion, but: this world is precious. I would even go so far as to say miraculous . Until we wake up to this fact, we will continue to ennui ourselves and this world into oblivion. It's hard to prove (or even study), but I believe this is the root cause of all the other tragedies. It is not something we will merely engineer our way out of. We don't like religion (or in many cases, even…

I'm not sure I fully know your stances on all of this, but Religion is not really a prerequisite for fully appreciating how beautiful yet precarious our biosphere truly is. Engineering solutions to combat or circumvent Climate Change is our ONLY way forward. But first we need to get a critical mass of our American citizenry to be convinced we have an actual problem. Especially, in fact, a large segment of the elector…

I agree that religion (especially as it is conceived today) is not the answer.

I also agree that engineering will be required. When I said "merely engineer," I meant that engineering cannot be a replacement for our awakening to the "miracle," but must be used in service of it.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#113

Post by jandrese »

everdrive wrote: post #101
jandrese wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer to keep "kill all humans" lower down on the list of possible solutions to environmental problems. Lets try some alternatives first.

No is suggesting this. Population control via less breeding is always an alternative.

That's a lot more difficult than just killing everyone. People are very protective of their breeding rights, and even in totalitarian regimes like China it eventually breaks down. Politically it's probably the hardest solution to our environmental problems. Harder even than strict carbon caps.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#114

Post by jandrese »

astrodust wrote: post #12
jandrese wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer to keep "kill all humans" lower down on the list of possible solutions to environmental problems. Lets try some alternatives first.

Nobody has to be killed, but if a handful of people were put in jail the world would be a dramatically different place.

People are going to say you're persecuting them for their religion if you jail "quiverfull" parents.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#115

Post by davinic »

Feuilles_Mortes wrote: post #100
RoutinePlayer wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I fully know your stances on all of this, but Religion is not really a prerequisite for fully appreciating how beautiful yet precarious our biosphere truly is. Engineering solutions to combat or circumvent Climate Change is our ONLY way forward. But first we need to get a critical mass of our American citizenry to be convinced we have an actual problem. Especially, in fact, a large segment of the elector…

> Engineering solutions to combat or circumvent Climate Change is our ONLY way forward. I think that this perspective ignores the environmental problems inherent in a capitalist mode of production, and in fact plays into them. I think that a political revolution could be imminent, and I would urge those concerned about the future of life on this planet to consider alternative modes of economics.

I disagree. One could change the capitalist model to account and be liable for all externalities and to tax/penalize those firms/countries who refuse to.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#117

Post by jacobolus »

commandlinefan wrote: post #80
technothrasher wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or we die out and the planet recovers on its own. That makes it sound like there's some kind of natural 'ideal state' for the planet to recover to. Without us, the planet would just go on changing, without anything to judge the current environment at any point as good or bad to any particular standard. Saving the environment is simply saving ourselves. Nothing more, nothing less.

> Saving the environment is simply saving ourselves I wonder, though... we know, for example, that bees pollinate plants, and that we need plants to be pollinated for our survival. But if the bees die out, we can figure out another technical way to pollinate plants - it might be a pain to carry out, and we might be kicking ourselves for not saving the bees before it got to that point, but it can be done. If it comes…

> If it comes down to a matter of survival, humans as a species will figure out a way to get what needs to be done, done.

Don’t count on it. Human civilization depends heavily on trust and cooperation, and a large number of complex systems functioning which nobody completely understands and most people barely notice. The whole endeavor is quite fragile.

Once basic systems start breaking down, people start starving and dying, and societies start to collapse, it can get real bad in a hurry.

There have been plenty of past examples of large-scale societies collapsing into ruin, with the survivors fleeing or dying out.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#118

Post by coliveira »

monktastic1 wrote: post #36

This apparently isn't a popular opinion, but: this world is precious. I would even go so far as to say miraculous . Until we wake up to this fact, we will continue to ennui ourselves and this world into oblivion. It's hard to prove (or even study), but I believe this is the root cause of all the other tragedies. It is not something we will merely engineer our way out of. We don't like religion (or in many cases, even…

In the modern world, the paramount desire of society is to grow the capitalist economy. For this purpose we are pressured to excel at things that will make this economy grow, and relegate everything else to a secondary status. That's why society views taking care of nature as non important. Many companies, such as oil and mining companies, are directly interested in destroying as much of earth as possible, just for the sake of making an extra buck. We need to create a new economy where these companies and others are directly controlled to produce only the minimum necessary in order to maintain what remains of this planet.

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#119

Post by fromthestart »

Isinlor wrote: post #29
imglorp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bought by Bayer, that name will be gone soon because of the well earned negative perceptions.

Well, not sure if Bayer is such a good name either. Bayer was part of conglomerate producing Zyklon B used by Germans to kill millions of people.

Bayer knowingly sold antihemopheliac factor contaminated with HIV.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24785997/

Re: Birds Are Vanishing from North America

#120

Post by chaoticmass »

RoutinePlayer wrote: post #78
monktastic1 wrote: post #36

This apparently isn't a popular opinion, but: this world is precious. I would even go so far as to say miraculous . Until we wake up to this fact, we will continue to ennui ourselves and this world into oblivion. It's hard to prove (or even study), but I believe this is the root cause of all the other tragedies. It is not something we will merely engineer our way out of. We don't like religion (or in many cases, even…

I'm not sure I fully know your stances on all of this, but Religion is not really a prerequisite for fully appreciating how beautiful yet precarious our biosphere truly is. Engineering solutions to combat or circumvent Climate Change is our ONLY way forward. But first we need to get a critical mass of our American citizenry to be convinced we have an actual problem. Especially, in fact, a large segment of the elector…

Carl Sagan wrote about the numinous, a feeling of awe from looking at the night sky. Can't remember if it was Cosmos, or Contact, or one of his other books.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numinous

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