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Havana syndrome: Exposure to neurotoxin may have been cause, study suggests

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21–30 of 76 posts

Re: Havana syndrome: Exposure to neurotoxin may have been cause, study suggests

#21
post #14

Interesting findings, but how do we blame the Russians for this? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latin-america/u-s-officials-sus... " The suspicion that Russia is likely behind the alleged attacks is backed up by evidence from communications intercepts, known in the spy world as signals intelligence, amassed during a lengthy and ongoing investigation involving the FBI, the CIA and other U.S. agencies. The officials decl…

At this point I think we owe Cuba and Russia an apology for the hysteria involved. However, if you're looking for a reason you can always find one. From the article, it sounds like the spraying of pesticides was "more than usual" which might mean it was done intentionally to appear as an accident, since the spraying is a good cover. I expect this would be easy enough to check on if they only sprayed with more frequen…

Well, on the one hand, "they" did spray more frequently at diplomatic residences.

On the other hand, unless things have changed considerably since my day, "they", would almost certainly be American diplomatic services. That's who would direct the spraying operations at those residences, not the Cubans.

The Cubans would have no involvement with those spraying operations, however, you would think Cubans would still spray the neighborhood just as they would any other neighborhood. That said, again, the problem was likely us spraying our diplomats' homes and offices multiple times more because, to our minds, the Cuban spraying was not enough.

Re: Havana syndrome: Exposure to neurotoxin may have been cause, study suggests

#22

> The embassies actively sprayed in offices, as well as inside and outside diplomatic residences — sometimes five times more frequently than usual. Many times, spraying operations were carried out every two weeks, according to embassy records. Wow, that is really alarming. I would never feel comfortable with that inside my home or office.

You kind of wonder, if someone's fumigating your office that often, and then you suddenly get sick, why wouldn't that be the first thing you look at?

Like, "Hmm, what about this giant cloud of bug spray? Maybe I'm allergic or something?"

Why did they jump to, "The Cubans must have Marvin the Martian's P-U-38 Explosive Space Modulator that they're shooting at my ears."

Re: Havana syndrome: Exposure to neurotoxin may have been cause, study suggests

#23
post #14

Interesting findings, but how do we blame the Russians for this? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latin-america/u-s-officials-sus... " The suspicion that Russia is likely behind the alleged attacks is backed up by evidence from communications intercepts, known in the spy world as signals intelligence, amassed during a lengthy and ongoing investigation involving the FBI, the CIA and other U.S. agencies. The officials decl…

At this point I think we owe Cuba and Russia an apology for the hysteria involved. However, if you're looking for a reason you can always find one. From the article, it sounds like the spraying of pesticides was "more than usual" which might mean it was done intentionally to appear as an accident, since the spraying is a good cover. I expect this would be easy enough to check on if they only sprayed with more frequen…

> At this point I think we owe Cuba and Russia an apology for the hysteria involved.

We are at the point where we need to confirm the hypothesis. If the hypothesis is confirmed we owe Cuba and Russia an apology.

Re: Havana syndrome: Exposure to neurotoxin may have been cause, study suggests

#24
post #22

> The embassies actively sprayed in offices, as well as inside and outside diplomatic residences — sometimes five times more frequently than usual. Many times, spraying operations were carried out every two weeks, according to embassy records. Wow, that is really alarming. I would never feel comfortable with that inside my home or office.

You kind of wonder, if someone's fumigating your office that often, and then you suddenly get sick, why wouldn't that be the first thing you look at? Like, "Hmm, what about this giant cloud of bug spray? Maybe I'm allergic or something?" Why did they jump to, "The Cubans must have Marvin the Martian's P-U-38 Explosive Space Modulator that they're shooting at my ears."

[dead]

Re: Havana syndrome: Exposure to neurotoxin may have been cause, study suggests

#25
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I think we owe Cuba and Russia an apology for the hysteria involved. However, if you're looking for a reason you can always find one. From the article, it sounds like the spraying of pesticides was "more than usual" which might mean it was done intentionally to appear as an accident, since the spraying is a good cover. I expect this would be easy enough to check on if they only sprayed with more frequen…

> At this point I think we owe Cuba and Russia an apology for the hysteria involved. We are at the point where we need to confirm the hypothesis. If the hypothesis is confirmed we owe Cuba and Russia an apology.

Yep. Fair conclusion thanks for pointing that out.

Re: Havana syndrome: Exposure to neurotoxin may have been cause, study suggests

#26
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I think we owe Cuba and Russia an apology for the hysteria involved. However, if you're looking for a reason you can always find one. From the article, it sounds like the spraying of pesticides was "more than usual" which might mean it was done intentionally to appear as an accident, since the spraying is a good cover. I expect this would be easy enough to check on if they only sprayed with more frequen…

Well, on the one hand, "they" did spray more frequently at diplomatic residences. On the other hand, unless things have changed considerably since my day, "they", would almost certainly be American diplomatic services. That's who would direct the spraying operations at those residences, not the Cubans. The Cubans would have no involvement with those spraying operations, however, you would think Cubans would still spr…

Ah yes. Great point.

Re: Havana syndrome: Exposure to neurotoxin may have been cause, study suggests

#27
post #9

Possibly related tidbit - I used to roll my own cigarettes when working in the field as a geologist, left a pack of papers under the seat of my truck which had no carpeting, spilled 100% DEET on the floor, DEET absorbed into pack of papers. Months later found those same papers (what luck!) and rolled a cigarette without thinking about it, minutes later I was asking my now wife if she "could hear the helicopter sounds…

I had an experience when I was a hardware engineer working in a lab that had been converted from previously being a machine room (for mainframes: raised floors, closed ventilation system). I was cleaning a prototype board with trichlorotrifluoroethane (or something similar -- whatever the solvent du jour was back then). The board had the typical green FR4 or Brobimer solder mask film. While engaged in this task I saw a little green dragon emerge from the board, chuckle, then blow a small flame from its snout. The whole thing was entirely realistic. The only thing that made me realize it wasn't real is I was pretty sure dragons don't exist.

Re: Havana syndrome: Exposure to neurotoxin may have been cause, study suggests

#28
post #22

> The embassies actively sprayed in offices, as well as inside and outside diplomatic residences — sometimes five times more frequently than usual. Many times, spraying operations were carried out every two weeks, according to embassy records. Wow, that is really alarming. I would never feel comfortable with that inside my home or office.

You kind of wonder, if someone's fumigating your office that often, and then you suddenly get sick, why wouldn't that be the first thing you look at? Like, "Hmm, what about this giant cloud of bug spray? Maybe I'm allergic or something?" Why did they jump to, "The Cubans must have Marvin the Martian's P-U-38 Explosive Space Modulator that they're shooting at my ears."

But, did the spraying start short time before the symptoms appeared? Or has it been going on for a long while? In the latter case, it's not strange that they didn't make a connection initially, because "nothing changed".

Re: Havana syndrome: Exposure to neurotoxin may have been cause, study suggests

#29
post #9

Possibly related tidbit - I used to roll my own cigarettes when working in the field as a geologist, left a pack of papers under the seat of my truck which had no carpeting, spilled 100% DEET on the floor, DEET absorbed into pack of papers. Months later found those same papers (what luck!) and rolled a cigarette without thinking about it, minutes later I was asking my now wife if she "could hear the helicopter sounds…

When my father was a child, he would bike behind the trucks that sprayed DDT all over the neighborhood because the DDT mist kept him cool. I hope you'll be fine, because people have done much worse!

Omg I hope your dad is alright?

Re: Havana syndrome: Exposure to neurotoxin may have been cause, study suggests

#30
post #7

Maybe we would use less pesticides if we just called them neurotoxins.

Fun story... VX nerve agent was discovered and originally introduced as a pesticide. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)

Not exactly VX, but Amiton (also known as Tetram or VG). It's about one tenth as toxic as VX, and similar in toxicity as sarin.

In 1975 the Iraqi ministry of agriculture negotiated with a U.S. company, Pfaudler, for a contract to build a pesticide production plant. The deal eventually fell through because Pfaudler did not understand why the Iraqis insisted on manufacturing Amiton instead of some safer alternative.

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