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The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

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Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#231

Post by raxxorrax »

diggan wrote: post #54
ineedasername wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, if they have no choice in it then I understand. But as for keeping a copy on disk that practically no one can ever see, to me that strikes seems like a distinction without a difference.

I'm pretty sure you can visit the building that Internet Archive operates from ( https://archive.org/about/contact.php ) and freely surf/look at all the content, even the content that is not available from the web version.

I see no advantage in restricting access. I just believe this to be a mechanism to hide uncomfortable content, which I believe has no benefit as long as no personal information is revealed.

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#232

Post by wahern »

est31 wrote: post #208
devmunchies wrote: post #104

> But Mr Graham argued that simply removing false information or offensive content isn’t necessarily the answer. Hateful material need not remain publicly available, he said, but certain researchers and politicians should be able to study it. They're planting the seed and seeing how the public reacts. This is ridiculous! Mark something "controversial", "possibly fake", but don't memory-hole us. An archive only archiv…

Archives are reflections of the societies that build and curate them, and the Internet Archive is no exception. Over the curse of centuries, every society is undergoing cultural changes and archives do adapt to those. The Internet Archive's practice of immediately and almost indiscriminately publishing everything they just archived on the internet very much reflects the spirit of the early internet of making everythi…

I like the "different kings" metaphor. An archive has to think long-term. To do its job unimpeded it has to remain inconspicuous and unobjectionable, otherwise it may lose access to information altogether. Kings and cultures will come and go, but as long as they have the data then their mission is substantially fulfilled. At some point in the future even the most radical material will become innocuous and safe to publish.

For example, this is why the archive obeys robots.txt policies retrospectively. I can't access my personal web pages from 20+ years because at some point the university changed it's robots.txt policy. (The domain no longer exists, freezing that policy quasi-permanently.) But at least they're archived. Maybe at some point before I die I'll get to see them again, but at least it's a possibility. More importantly, my "sacrifice" (such as it is) is a small price to pay to help ensure that archive.org preserved access to material that would have been cut off if websites felt that they didn't have control of availability once archived.

We can't expect archive.org to fight our battles for us, whether regarding censorship, copyright overreach, or other issues. It's great that they do to the extent that they do, but their success is partly a consequence of them picking their fights and emphasizing their character of being a quiet, harmless archiver. It would be counter-productive to ask them to risk that credibility and power. And it's entirely unnecessary.

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#233

Post by mirimir »

lacampbell wrote: post #225
ppseafield wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worth discussing this comment instead of downvoting it. There was a lot of controversy around the copyright expiration of Mein Kampf in Germany a few years ago. The Bavarian government owned the copyright and refused to allow it to be printed. When the copyright expired, annotated versions were released, putting the book in context. There are certain disadvantages that not printing had: making the book m…

I never understood the big deal about Mein Kampf. It's incredibly dull. If the premise is you're worried about people becoming Nazis, then his speeches are what you ought to be worried about. He rose to popularity through his speeches, not writing.

For example, "Triumph Of The Will".[0]

0) https://archive.org/details/TriumphOfTheWillgermanTriumphDes...

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#234

Post by Nemo_bis »

reaperducer wrote: post #43
haunter wrote: post #2

Does anyone how the Internet Archive get a bypass on DMCA? It's full of pirated games for example. I'm aware that it's one thing to archive something but anyone can download it as well, so it's essentially distribution too. Just curious how does it work. Personally that's how I get old SNES, NES, DS games.

Didn't IA go through the bother to legally become a library, allowing all kinds of digital lending? The last time this came up on HN, I was able to find the information. But it doesn't Google doesn't seem to want to share any information with me about it right now. Maybe because it's older than six minutes.

You could consider using a certain little known libre encyclopedia for your searches:

> was officially designated as a library by the state of California in 2007.[notes 6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Archive#Operations

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#235

Post by dgellow »

kd3 wrote: post #185
tpmx wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think that. Then I tried volunteering via their IRC channel and was met with some next level hostility. My read is: a) They're doing a job that needs to be done. b) They're relatively flush with cash from donors c) They're not nearly as efficient as they could be. d) The people there seemed more concerned about competition than collaboration. e) Probably most controversial: The organization seems like it ha…

Don't know about the organization, but their ux and tech could definitely use some updates to bring it to 2019 levels of expectation. Aside from that, we are lucky to have them.

Oh no, please! The 2019 level of expectation is at minimum 500KB of JavaScript, for an overkill single page application, and terrible user experience.

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#236

Post by raxxorrax »

ppseafield wrote: post #176
ntzm wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather not have a manual for starting a neo-nazi race war archived to be honest

I think it's worth discussing this comment instead of downvoting it. There was a lot of controversy around the copyright expiration of Mein Kampf in Germany a few years ago. The Bavarian government owned the copyright and refused to allow it to be printed. When the copyright expired, annotated versions were released, putting the book in context. There are certain disadvantages that not printing had: making the book m…

I think Germany is no good role model when it comes to content restrictions, since too many measures are based on fear or shame, while adherence to arbitrary content rules isn't examined critically.

That is one factor why I believe Germany to be more likely to succumb to fascism again compared to the US for example. Luckily, the 21st century doesn't allow for much content control anymore.

Mein Kampf can reasonably fail on itself. There is need for context, of course, that education can and has to provide.

If you allow people to use their own judgement, perhaps that would have served as an incentive to use it in times of dire need.

The current idea that fascism rose because of too few content control is a grave mistake.

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#237

Post by tastroder »

raxxorrax wrote: post #236
ppseafield wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worth discussing this comment instead of downvoting it. There was a lot of controversy around the copyright expiration of Mein Kampf in Germany a few years ago. The Bavarian government owned the copyright and refused to allow it to be printed. When the copyright expired, annotated versions were released, putting the book in context. There are certain disadvantages that not printing had: making the book m…

I think Germany is no good role model when it comes to content restrictions, since too many measures are based on fear or shame, while adherence to arbitrary content rules isn't examined critically. That is one factor why I believe Germany to be more likely to succumb to fascism again compared to the US for example. Luckily, the 21st century doesn't allow for much content control anymore. Mein Kampf can reasonably fa…

> That is one factor why I believe Germany to be more likely to succumb to fascism again compared to the US for example.

Citation needed? From the view of my filter bubble it looks like white supremacy and it's racist ideologies seem to be on an alarming rise in both countries regardless of their approach on free speech.

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#238

Post by pdkl95 »

mirimir wrote: post #233
lacampbell wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood the big deal about Mein Kampf. It's incredibly dull. If the premise is you're worried about people becoming Nazis, then his speeches are what you ought to be worried about. He rose to popularity through his speeches, not writing.

For example, "Triumph Of The Will".[0] 0) https://archive.org/details/TriumphOfTheWillgermanTriumphDes...

"Triumph of the Will and the Cinematic Language of Propaganda"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ1Qm1Z_D7w

The propaganda was incredibly successful. To this day "Triumph of the Will" continues to be used as a reference point for the mental construct of the Nazi regime. The modern understanding of the Nazis is deeply informed by a propaganda film produced by the Nazis for the explicit purpose of creating that mental construct. "Triumph of the Will"'s endless lines of soldiers marching in formation is exactly the image they wanted you to think of when you thought of them.

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#239

Post by tastroder »

dragonwriter wrote: post #160
JulianMorrison wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no public-interest benefit in hate screeds. Those are memetic viruses with established body counts and should be studied, if at all, in the manner one studies smallpox.

> There is no public-interest benefit in hate screeds. Sure there is. If you can't read Mein Kampf , you can't recognize when a new work is following in its footprints.

> If you can't read Mein Kampf, you can't recognize when a new work is following in its footprints.

Really don't know how to make this sound nicer but... German here, we have schools. Reading the source material of a genocidal maniac would have added zero value to my education.

For some reason it's weird to see this free speech is a cure-all angle repeated time and again in a forum with US focus given the current administration's questionable stance on human rights, racism and a plethora of other issues like climate change.

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#240

Post by Roritharr »

wahern wrote: post #232
est31 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Archives are reflections of the societies that build and curate them, and the Internet Archive is no exception. Over the curse of centuries, every society is undergoing cultural changes and archives do adapt to those. The Internet Archive's practice of immediately and almost indiscriminately publishing everything they just archived on the internet very much reflects the spirit of the early internet of making everythi…

I like the "different kings" metaphor. An archive has to think long-term. To do its job unimpeded it has to remain inconspicuous and unobjectionable, otherwise it may lose access to information altogether. Kings and cultures will come and go, but as long as they have the data then their mission is substantially fulfilled. At some point in the future even the most radical material will become innocuous and safe to pub…

My gut reaction was also:"oh no, not them, why don't they take a stand?" but your logic is completely valid, they shouldn't, for the futures sake. I just hope they ensure their source data stays untouched.

What surprised me was that you say they respect the robots.txt, but the data is archived anyway, so they are crawling anyway, but only publish according the rules defined in the robots.txt?

If so that is news to me.

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